Perfect Camera

[fotografr]

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5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have done, and it wouldn't be nearly as interesting, atmospheric or 'universal'. Pixels and sharpness are not necessary criteria for the best photographs.
(IMO, of course).

I wasn't referring to sharpness. We are in agreement there. I was referring to, as Jaap pointed out, the gain in sensor information that results in better tonal range and overall image quality.

[ramarren]

11 hours ago, fotografr said:

That's a beautiful image. Now imagine it with twice the effective megapixels.

thank you! I don't think it would make much difference, given that the photo was made through the dirty double glass of a train window while jouncing and bouncing along at 70+ mph.

There are of course some advantages, in some circumstances, to using a Monochrom otherwise there wouldn't be any need/desire for one, but the largest downside of using a camera with a monochrome only sensor is that instead of being able to adjust relative densities of the grayscale rendering of different colors in a scene after the fact like you can do with RGB images, with a monochrome sensor you must pre-visualize those adjustments by a) knowing precisely what the spectral characteristics of the sensor are before hand, and b) adding filters to the lens to achieve the previsualized results. This costs sensor speed and implies a higher percentage of missed shots because you chose the wrong filter for one reason or another, and also means that you need to carry with you (and be willing to fit on demand) the usual assortment of B&W filters ... yellow, orange, red, green, blue, and their variations per your predilections. 

Unless doing one of those niche things where the additional resolution and speed of the Monochrom sensor is an advantage, there's little point to it IMO. And I'm speaking as one who put an order in and waited for a Leica M Monochrom typ 246 for almost a quarter of a year before giving up and using the money to buy an SL ...! 

Edited March 30, 2019 by ramarren

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[jaapv]

Yes, you must know your B&W Trchniques to get the best out of a Monochrom. But then the results    Tonalty, contrast transitions, micro contrast , quite different from film, but also far removed from conversions.   No way can you fake it. 

[cirke]

16 hours ago, fotografr said:

Have you ever used a Monochrom camera?  That statement doesn't come close to what my experience has been.

I have compared MM2 with M240 many dng, same photo,  same moment, same lens , to me MM  has no interest at all 

[Jeff S]

I have the MM (original) and the M10, and always do my own printing (and matting/framing when worthy).  A lot depends on the subject, lighting, print materials and print size, display conditions, etc.  No such thing as ‘plug and play’.  But when conditions are right, and my techniques are sufficient, the MM results can’t be matched by the M10.  Admittedly, however, I can be lazy about carrying filters, and even so, the additional PP flexibility (color channels) when using the M10 (or even the M8.2 and M240 before) can sometimes lead to a superior result in certain aspects.

At the end of the day, it’s more the photographer (and the human printer) that makes the most important difference... just as in the darkroom days.

Jeff

[jaapv]

26 minutes ago, cirke said:

I have compared MM2 with M240 many dng, same photo,  same moment, same lens , to me MM  has no interest at all 

So did I. MM1 against M9 and M240. No contest. But I’ll admit that LR can be challenging on Monochrom files. I found I got the best results from PS. I agree with Jeff: the final proof is in the print. 

[fotografr]

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

So did I. MM1 against M9 and M240. No contest. I agree with Jeff: the final proof is in the print. 

David Farkas (Red Dot Forum) did a detailed test comparing the MM1, M240 conversions and the M246. His results are pretty clear that files from the M246 are unmatched. Even making a huge 40x60 print, the image was stunning viewed from only a foot away. He also tested the M246 extensively on trips to NYC and New Orleans and published dozens of photos with his review. He shot day and night at ISO from 320 to 10,000 under all kinds of conditions. There was no mention of any use of filters and I'm sure he would have indicated if he'd used them. I've occasionally used a red filter with my MM1 to darken blue sky but other than that the only filter I carry is a neutral density.

Edited March 30, 2019 by fotografr

[fotografr]

3 hours ago, cirke said:

I have compared MM2 with M240 many dng, same photo,  same moment, same lens , to me MM  has no interest at all 

I think what it comes down to it how important it is to achieve the best possible results with b&w images. For some, it's just not a big deal. To me, it's everything due to my preference for b&w photography. It's also important to me to not have to carry a large, heavy kit, which is why the idea of a CL Monochrom appeals to me.

Edited March 30, 2019 by fotografr

[ramarren]

Whatever floats your boat!

I was having a ball yesterday shooting B&W instant film with an SLR670x and an RF70. I had a light yellow filter fitted to both of them ... most B&W returns the best results to my eye that way for fair skinned people. My standard B&W conversion rendering for CL DNGs pretty much effects that same filter adjustment.

[nicci78]

Original M Monochrom is the best Leica so far. 

No colour sensor can match it. Really. Only medium or large format black and white films are better  

To control the output, just use colour filter. Orange or yellow one are my favourites. Just like in the old days of film.

 

Funny thing, did you know that you can also easily convert colour negatives or slide films into black and white ? But most of you will found that outrageous, and shout to use a real black and white film instead ! 

But for curious reasons, most of you are saying that it is completely stupid to shoot with a Monochrome digital camera... why this double standard ?

Try the Monochrom once to be really convinced. But please do not use Silver Efex, results are bad with it. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by nicci78

[pico]

7 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Original M Monochrom is the best Leica so far.
No colour sensor can match it. Really. Only medium or large format black and white films are better

Making images with monochrome digital sensors is worse than stepping back 100 years in time. Monochrome film today has various color sensitivities for good reasons.

Edited March 31, 2019 by pico

[nicci78]

29 minutes ago, pico said:

Making images with monochrome digital sensors is worse than stepping back 100 years in time. Monochrome film today has various color sensitivities for good reasons.

Hum hum, just to sum up, what you get with a M Monochrom (any model)

- at least twice the sensibility, because you get rid of light eating Bayer filter. 

- twice the sharper than colour version. Once again no sharpening eating Bayer filter

- medium format tonality. You guess it, no Bayer filter.

No more need to guess the tonality and luminosity with only the green pixels.

Bayer sensor are only half the resolution in practice, but Monochrom is full resolution.

 

[pico]

16 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Hum hum, just to sum up, what you get with a M Monochrom (any model)

- at least twice the sensibility, because you get rid of light eating Bayer filter. 

- twice the sharper than colour version. Once again no sharpening eating Bayer filter

- medium format tonality. You guess it, no Bayer filter.

No more need to guess the tonality and luminosity with only the green pixels.

Bayer sensor are only half the resolution in practice, but Monochrom is full resolution.t

 

All your points are incorrect or entirely irrelevant except to a blind keyboard junkie.

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by pico

[lct]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Try the Monochrom once to be really convinced. But please do not use Silver Efex, results are bad with it.

That's what i suspected so thanks no thanks i need electronic color filters personally. My little Sigma DP2 Merrill does so well in b&w (and color) that the next Sigma body with L mount could become my "perfect" mirrorless camera BTW, at least with my R lenses. Remains to see how it will cope with digital noise though.

[cirke]

Nobody in any test could ever tell if a black and white photo came from a monochrome sensor or not
I do mostly black and white and I have the latest Epson A2
All this is only subjective

[cirke]

4 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Hum hum, just to sum up, what you get with a M Monochrom (any model)

- at least twice the sensibility, because you get rid of light eating Bayer filter. 

- twice the sharper than colour version. Once again no sharpening eating Bayer filter

- medium format tonality. You guess it, no Bayer filter.

No more need to guess the tonality and luminosity with only the green pixels.

Bayer sensor are only half the resolution in practice, but Monochrom is full resolution.

 

These are just words and in practice it's completely wrong, a color sensor captures luminosity exactly like a monochrome sensor, and it has more than enough informations to get the same monochrome
But you wil see by you own in a few months , the problem comes only from the (too) late conversion

Edited April 1, 2019 by cirke

[pico]

32 minutes ago, cirke said:

Nobody in any test could ever tell if a black and white photo came from a monochrome sensor or not

Is that a challenge?

 

[nicci78]

Whatever, just check your own fact before.

 I own a Monochrom for more than three years, with 17K photos shot with it. Maybe I know a little more about the case. 

I just made the mistake to accept a refund, because of corroded sensor. Instead of a free sensor repair. Regretted my Monochrom since then. My wife said it is the only Leica that really worth the money... because the images are so spécial. 

I get a M10 instead, but it doesn’t produce nice black and white against the M Monochrom. I am spoiled by the bayerless sensor. M10 was sold.

I am waiting to see what the M10 Monochrom would produce. Just a few months wait now.

 

By the way Sigma DP are specials, they do not have Bayer filter, hence the excellent black and white. But you will not get the film like grain high ISO images of M Monochrom. Actually you do not get high ISO at all with the Foveon sensor.

 

And to finish, colour filters are really easy to use. Just check the weather and your subject. Then screw the right colour on the filter thread. Then stick with it. You see ? Not that hard 😉 Results will be spectacular, way more than digital filters. 

And you know what ? you do not even have to use any colour filter at all.  

[ramarren]

Since this thread seems to have become a "monochrom vs rgb" debate, the very best discussion and comparison of the M9 Monochrom vs the M246 Monochrom vs the M240 was written by EGOR (Gregory Simpson) back in 2015 or so: 

Sensors and Sensibility : The Leica M (246) Monochrom

Sentences and Sensibility: Leica’s M (246) Pt. 2

I think what EGOR has to say, and demonstrates so clearly, is very sound. If I'd actually gotten the M246 as I had planned, I'm sure I'd have loved it. But it didn't happen, my needs have moved on in other directions, I'm completely satisfied with what my current equipment does with respect to producing B&W photographs, and nothing anyone else has said makes the slightest bit of difference to my feelings on this subject any more. 

I've got a roll of HP5 in my "new to me" Fuji GS645S. I suspect that will be my Monochrom for the foreseeable future.

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[lct]

22 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

[...] And to finish, colour filters are really easy to use. Just check the weather and your subject. Then screw the right colour on the filter thread. Then stick with it. You see ? Not that hard 😉 Results will be spectacular, way more than digital filters. 

Been trying this since the seventies, to no avail unfortunately. Silver Efex allows me to use color filters in a way i never suspected before. Quite a game changer to me. YMMV.