CL. For Family Photography with Kids?

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I can hold it vertically with my fingers on the grip as you mention without a problem.  It’s tough for me to view the (non tilting) LCD when I hold it too low - but with a wide enough lens, I can get the shot.  LOL

[justbananas]

Well, the Fed Ex truck has just arrived.   🤩

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[al_exus]

On 4/1/2019 at 7:18 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

Grandson momentarily cheerful after returning from A&E to patch up his left forefinger, caught in a door! (Hence the 'sock' on his left hand).

Poor children, they constantly get from adults . My son as a child, grandmother pinched the finger of a car door.

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, al_exus said:

Poor children, they constantly get from adults . My son as a child, grandmother pinched the finger of a car door.

Yes - I did the same to my daughter. Parents figure high on the risk register for children.

[justbananas]

as I begin to pull my first files into lightroom, I'm wondering if there are any normal workflows for color here.  I notice there are no camera matching styles, which is fine.  

 

overall, they are "okay".  I'm wondering if anyone adjusts their settings for a CL RAW file in the Calibration window, and if so, what your starting settings are there.  I'm using the most current version of Lightroom Classic CC.

[justbananas]

Ok, I'm impressed.  These DNG files are incredibly forgiving.  I feel like I can push them around just about any way I want and they will not fall apart.  The lenses are very very sharp.  

[globalwander]

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On 4/1/2019 at 1:37 PM, justbananas said:

I do a lot of one hand shooting. Especially with the camera hung from my fingertips vertical and low. I’m unsure how much the cl grip gives for doing this. 

 

I have no issue with a used unit and have been considering that myself if this test week goes well

I had a lot of trouble handling the CL in the vertical position with one hand, so I added the Thumbs Up. Now it's great. I'm adding the Leica grip. I also bought my CL used from Leica Store Miami. Buying it from a Leica Store has the advantage of some level of warranty.

[jaapv]

13 hours ago, justbananas said:

as I begin to pull my first files into lightroom, I'm wondering if there are any normal workflows for color here.  I notice there are no camera matching styles, which is fine.  

 

overall, they are "okay".  I'm wondering if anyone adjusts their settings for a CL RAW file in the Calibration window, and if so, what your starting settings are there.  I'm using the most current version of Lightroom Classic CC.

I made a few camera profiles using the Colorchecker Passport for different kinds of light.

[Merv-O]

On 3/31/2019 at 5:39 PM, LocalHero1953 said:

he CL's AF is snappier, the CL's EVF is much better than the add-on EVF for the TL2 (I have the add-on EVF, but I don't use it), and overall the CL is more responsive

I agree totally. I have both cameras and ended up selling the EVF typ 020 add-on because it was slow and would not return to the touch screen which as you all know, turns the TL/TL2 series into a 'brick' as the touch screen is the only way to make changes or alterations in the settings. It frustrated me as to its slow recognition. I will say that the Cl's EVF is superior, though sometimes it appears brighter than the actual view and as a M-Series  RF shooter who is used to actual conditions, it's sometimes annoying. Overall though, because of the focus peaking, I find it easy to use my M-Series lenses (primes) with the M to T adapter quite seamless. I also feel comfortable using the CL's standard Leica digital menu system as it's a variant of the M-Series displays.

[justbananas]

Here's my initial thoughts.

I'm trying to justify the price tag, and here's what I can come up with.

Image Quality: Excellent

RAW Quality: Excellent

Autofocus: No better, no worse than any other contrast detection.  Of my first 500 photos, only 2 or 3 missed.

Manual Focus: Solid in EVF but no real feel to the lens ring.  Not solid from the back screen unless it's right in front of your face.  If the camera is lower than your face, seeing any peaking at a bias to the screen, especially out doors, doesn't work well.  Same for the focus square if using auto focus mode other than multipoint, where at least you can hope.

Simplicity: Excellent

Ergonomics: Brick

Menus: Excellent

Lens Sharpness: Excellent

Speed: Middle - long blackout, slow buffer, but quick to turn on and shoot (this is important to me)

EVF: AWESOME - tougher with glasses than without

HIGH ISO Performance: Great

Weather Sealing: None (errg)

For the method I use to shoot, this camera is a real pleasure to use.  I usually leave the camera in Aperture mode with the ISO auto range contained in camera and go from there.  For this, it works great.  

Holding this camera is another matter.  The lower edge of the frame rests on my right pinky finger, and it doesn't take long for this to become irritating.  I also wish there was something for my thumb to do.  The little D-pad works wonderful - my only gripe is it's position means no matter what, in order to use it I must put my other hand back on the camera or I risk dropping it.  A small joystick near the corner of upper right corner of the screen would be truly amazing.  One could quite easily adjust a focus point one handed and/or without looking.  I must admit, one of the things I really enjoyed about the Fuji XT-3 was that little joystick.. it was a real pleasure to use and in the perfect place.

Due to it's small size, the camera strap is always in my way.

I can absolutely see where one would prefer an M over the CL.  I've never used an M, however, I can see where it bests the CL in a number of ways.  I *might* skip the CL and go directly to an M(x)

I can also see where a D-Lux might best the CL.  Fast and simple zoom lens down to 1.7. A thumb rest.  Small in size. One lens does it all. Pocket and go to the zoo.

 

It's a tough sell for the price. While it's great, is it "enough" to justify the price?  When for just "some more" one could have an M and a 35mm lens, or for a little less, one could have a D-Lux.

 

I can say this.. when the images rolled off into lightroom - I found myself feeling blown away, and I had a hard time culling the images down to just a few for editing. And once I started editing, a lot of pictures I thought "I don't even need to touch this, I'll just keep the JPG". And I can't quite put my finger on why I feel that way.  There's just something about them... but I can't tell you what.  At the end of the day, that probably matters most.

When I did the same with the Fuji - I had a hard time finding enough images I liked.  Every image required what I felt was a ton of effort to make them feel like I wanted to.  Cropping was difficult, and the files didn't enjoy being pushed around in lightroom.

 

I feel the same way about my Canon camera with the sigma lens on it.  It takes truly wonderful and beautiful photographs with that lens, it's just gigantic.  No way I want to travel with that big thing, ever.  The ISO performance of the CL smokes the Canon.  Leica files to 6400 ISO, fine.  Canon files over 1600 iso, nope.

Edited April 4, 2019 by justbananas

[jaapv]

Handgrip and (possibly) Thumbie will solve your ergonomic problems.

 

The D-Lux is a great little camera, but is is behind the CL in small-sensor drawbacks, i.e. lack of shallow DOF and a bit more of a struggle with ISO (The CL punches above its class regarding ISO and has the bigger sensor (DOF).)

[justbananas]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Handgrip and (possibly) Thumbie will solve your ergonomic problems.

 

The D-Lux is a great little camera, but is is behind the CL in small-sensor drawbacks, i.e. lack of shallow DOF and a bit more of a struggle with ISO (The CL punches above its class regarding ISO and has the bigger sensor (DOF).)

I agree.  The M4/3 sensor is a drawback on the D-Lux.

 

What is it about these images that I like so much?  I've heard a lot of people say the same thing.  "There's just something about them..."

[justbananas]

I hope this works, here's a link to a small Flickr album.  Some of these went through lightroom, some of them are straight out of camera

https://www.flickr.com/gp/shootbetterstories/9ZH6Hr

 

[rob_w]

1 hour ago, justbananas said:

Holding this camera is another matter.  The lower edge of the frame rests on my right pinky finger, and it doesn't take long for this to become irritating.  I also wish there was something for my thumb to do.  The little D-pad works wonderful - my only gripe is it's position means no matter what, in order to use it I must put my other hand back on the camera or I risk dropping it.  A small joystick near the corner of upper right corner of the screen would be truly amazing.  One could quite easily adjust a focus point one handed and/or without looking.  I must admit, one of the things I really enjoyed about the Fuji XT-3 was that little joystick.. it was a real pleasure to use and in the perfect place.

Due to it's small size, the camera strap is always in my way.

Another vote for the handgrip accessory.  For about 10 years now I have switched to using a handgrip (if needed, as for the M and the CL) and a wristrap, rather than a neck strap.  There is just a little pressure created between the camera and the wrist strap -- enough to hold my hand in position without effort.

I take the camera and sometimes one additional lens in a small plain bag.  Usually I include a spare SD card, spare battery and polarizing filter (the only optical filter you cannot recreate in post-processing).  Depending on where I am going with the camera, I might add sunglasses, wallet, kindle, passport - all without much change to the weight.  When I want to start photographing I take the camera out and keep it on my wrist ready for action.  Even the M with an older brass barrel silver plated lens is quite manageable for an hour or two at a time like this -- and that's a heavier combo than the CL+23 or zoom.  If I stop at a restaurant, ride in a taxi, sit down at a social event, the camera goes back in the bag and is safely protected -- all with no tangling, no strangling, no swinging around and bumping things, that I used to get with neck straps.  Until cameras become entirely pocketable that setup works really well for me.  There are some very nice third-party wrist straps and you wont break the bank if you're skint from paying for the Leica camera 😊

As for your subsequent question about the special feeling from Leica lenses, there are many attempts to define that.  All of us on the forum know what you mean; that's why we're here and not on some other forum.

PS just followed your link to the sample photos.  Great stuff!  One thing I do like about both the M and the CL is that they are not large enough to cover your face, so you can still make eye contact with the subject and get a great response (as you have here).   They are not intimidating cameras to use when photographing family and friends, especially children, compared to a typical DSLR plus zoom.  Most people are a bit shocked when they see the quality because they thought it was just a little point and shoot thing.  IMHO this is a valuable feature of Leica designs which is often overlooked.

Edited April 4, 2019 by rob_w

[justbananas]

18 minutes ago, rob_w said:

Another vote for the handgrip accessory.  For about 10 years now I have switched to using a handgrip (if needed, as for the M and the CL) and a wristrap, rather than a neck strap.  There is just a little pressure created between the camera and the wrist strap -- enough to hold my hand in position without effort.

I take the camera and sometimes one additional lens in a small plain bag.  Usually I include a spare SD card, spare battery and polarizing filter (the only optical filter you cannot recreate in post-processing).  Depending on where I am going with the camera, I might add sunglasses, wallet, kindle, passport - all without much change to the weight.  When I want to start photographing I take the camera out and keep it on my wrist ready for action.  Even the M with an older brass barrel silver plated lens is quite manageable for an hour or two at a time like this -- and that's a heavier combo than the CL+23 or zoom.  If I stop at a restaurant, ride in a taxi, sit down at a social event, the camera goes back in the bag and is safely protected -- all with no tangling, no strangling, no swinging around and bumping things, that I used to get with neck straps.  Until cameras become entirely pocketable that setup works really well for me.  There are some very nice third-party wrist straps and you wont break the bank if you're skint from paying for the Leica camera 😊

As for your subsequent question about the special feeling from Leica lenses, there are many attempts to define that.  All of us on the forum know what you mean; that's why we're here and not on some other forum.

PS just followed your link to the sample photos.  Great stuff!  One thing I do like about both the M and the CL is that they are not large enough to cover your face, so you can still make eye contact with the subject and get a great response (as you have here).   They are not intimidating cameras to use when photographing family and friends, especially children, compared to a typical DSLR plus zoom.  Most people are a bit shocked when they see the quality because they thought it was just a little point and shoot thing.  IMHO this is a valuable feature of Leica designs which is often overlooked.

I absolutely LOVE the view finder at the edge of the camera.  Now, with that gallery, I wasn't trying to make anything too special, just snap shots for the sake of snap shots.

[justbananas]

I just unloaded another 80 pictures from this morning.  No house lights, overcast outside, shutter no slower than 1/100. f2.0 and I ended up with a lot of soft images.  I *think* this is likely due to a small amount of lag from auto focus acquisition to shutter actuation time.  I'm usually only a few feet from my daughter, and quick movement with these settings can throw the focus off rapidly.  I know these settings aren't ideal, however, when she stays still, the results from the soft light from the windows is wonderful.

[Guest]

The D-Lux is a great 1-lens solution - but the optics are not as sharp and DOF not as shallow, and noise is less forgiving.  It’s fast and great for the kids however and won’t break the bank. 

I switched from a d-lux to an X Vario and never looked back. The CL with the 18-56 is the perfect replacement.

Heres a neat little strap that’s also cheap ($34). Very high quality leather  and doesn’t use metal O rings (it’s like the larger Peak Design strap), so it solves that problem you mentioned - which I also had.  It also has the grippiest shoulder pad I have ever used, which is a plus  it definitely won’t slide off your shoulder.

4V Design Lusso Tuscany Leather Slim Handmade Leather Camera Strap w/Universal Fit Kit, Black/Black (2SP01BVV0909) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017A92J0M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_JzSPCbVA29ZCT

The cord is strong enough  (but I switch to the OpTech cord). - and the design makes it easy to quickly remove the strap and store it in your bag.

I only use the strap when I am out on a day trip without a diaper bag or camera bag.  It stays off the CL when I am at home with the kids etc.

PS - Keep in mind you are getting pretty much M quality lenses (edge to edge sharpness throughout the zoom range, special micro contrast shadow transition rendering) that resolve 60lppm and have autofocus. They are somewhat future proof if you upgrade the body to a CL2 etc... Leica lenses also reduce contrast in the unfocused areas - giving that 3D look.  The D Lux can’t do that. 

PPS - What lens are you using and what min shutter speed and max ISO in the auto-ISO settings?  I try to use 6400 and 1/3x- and bump up to 12,500 (or bump shutter down) in a low light pinch with the 18-56.

This may sound like heresy here- but you can also use the wider end of the zoom to get more light in with the wider aperture, and crop in PP, but the sensor punches above its weight in general - for low light and cropping.  

i hope this is helpful.

Good luck with your decision.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Guest

[justbananas]

I started some work with that zoom lens tonight.  Of course it was indoors and under overhead mixed lighting - tough conditions for any camera.  I white balanced to a WhiBal card.  Still working the best way to handle these files in Lightroom.  They aren't the most pleasing. I attribute that to me not knowing what I'm doing. 🤪  Which is totally true.

Edited April 5, 2019 by justbananas

[justbananas]

Here's a successful photo though...  Although this was with the prime lens.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Guest]

Auto WB works well for me (shooting DNg’a) except in certain warm indoor lights. When that happens, i use LR and set color to auto (from “as shot”) - and tweak it from there. Unscientific but it’s fast and gets it close enough to my memory and liking. I need to learn LR better I admit - but strive for a fast and simple workflow because I get so many keepers of my adorable grandkids.  Best always- Cheers!