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Leica Q2 EVF not as good as expected


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Edited by algrove
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  • 4 months later...
On 3/23/2019 at 11:13 PM, Michafoto said:

Hi, I've used the Q for a long time and was always happy with the EVF, it was pin sharp. I find that the EVF from the Q2 is flickering a bit, it's ever so slightly pixelated and not as crisp as it should be. Why is that? Has anyone else got those issues and are there any tips how it can be resolved? Please let me know, thanks

Hi everyone. I own the Q2 for a month and I must admit that flickering is very annoying in certain situations such as by pointing the camera against artificial light sources circumscribed within a dark frame. This effect is attenuated by pressing the focus button but always persists a bit. I also thought of sending the camera in assistance, because I can't quantify the real size of this problem and cannot realize if it's really a native hardware problem or a failure of my camera. Are there any updates?

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The evf refresh rate and the flickering of the light sources willmost likely interfere somehow.

I.e. If you have 90fps on the EVF and 60Hz on the power network, you will see some of the flicker.

 

Just as with LEDs in cars.. Look at video footage of daylight driving lamps on.. Ridiculous, but unavoidable. 

 

 

Just go outdoors and take real photographs instead of sitting inside and testing the camera on your desk.. Just saying

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16 hours ago, marcobellardinelli said:

Hi everyone. I own the Q2 for a month and I must admit that flickering is very annoying in certain situations such as by pointing the camera against artificial light sources circumscribed within a dark frame. This effect is attenuated by pressing the focus button but always persists a bit. I also thought of sending the camera in assistance, because I can't quantify the real size of this problem and cannot realize if it's really a native hardware problem or a failure of my camera. Are there any updates?

There won’t be any updates.  Household current is AC, so power to artificial lights of all sorts is turning off and on sixty times per second.  In the case of incandescent lights, the filament doesn’t cool off much in such a short period of time so the fluctuations are tiny.  In the case of most LED’s, the light actually turns fully off and on during each cycle of the mains, so it flickers.  This flicker is generally not perceptible to humans.  In fact, lots of flashlights will use this flicker to control perceived brightness by adjusting the ratios of “off” and “on” in this cycle.  It’s called Pulse Width Modulation

The LCD in your viewfinder also turns off and on at some rate that will vary with the amount of light but is generally lower under dim light.  It is easy for the two cycles to be in synch in a way that allows the EVF to be dark for multiple cycles—enough to be easily perceptible.  I expect this could be addressed by making sure certain frequencies are never chosen by the viewfinder.  If, however, one of the frequencies that most creates the problem is the fastest refresh rate—likely—then Leica is very unlikely to make a firmware change as a fast refresh rate is generally beneficial.

End result?  Don’t expect a change.

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18 hours ago, Jared said:

There won’t be any updates.  Household current is AC, so power to artificial lights of all sorts is turning off and on sixty times per second.  In the case of incandescent lights, the filament doesn’t cool off much in such a short period of time so the fluctuations are tiny.  In the case of most LED’s, the light actually turns fully off and on during each cycle of the mains, so it flickers.  This flicker is generally not perceptible to humans.  In fact, lots of flashlights will use this flicker to control perceived brightness by adjusting the ratios of “off” and “on” in this cycle.  It’s called Pulse Width Modulation

The LCD in your viewfinder also turns off and on at some rate that will vary with the amount of light but is generally lower under dim light.  It is easy for the two cycles to be in synch in a way that allows the EVF to be dark for multiple cycles—enough to be easily perceptible.  I expect this could be addressed by making sure certain frequencies are never chosen by the viewfinder.  If, however, one of the frequencies that most creates the problem is the fastest refresh rate—likely—then Leica is very unlikely to make a firmware change as a fast refresh rate is generally beneficial.

End result?  Don’t expect a change.

Thanks for detailed explanation :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

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I go back to writing for another explanation that someone could give me and it always concerns the viewfinder screen.  I noticed that, in PASM mode, keeping the shutter  button pressed halfway and moving the frame (for example if I need to keep the exposure locked) the movements within the viewfinder occur in jerks, which are accentuated gradually increasing  f-stop number.  I don't remember this happening when I was working with the Q, is it just my impression? 

I hope I was clear enough, thank you for any comments on the matter!

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That sounds like the OIS trying to treat your re-compose movement as camera jiggle, then giving up when it runs out of travel.  The refresh rate on the EVF is quite high, so it shouldn’t “jerk” with movements normally.

Try disabling OIS to see if that fixes the issue you are describing.   

The other possibility I can think of is that the refresh rate has dropped because of low light, so that makes the EVF seem to lag.  Perhaps it’s a combination of both?  Since the OIS would be on under low light situations?  

To be honest, I haven’t observed what you are describing, so I’m just guessing, but at least it would be easy to test to see if I’m right.  

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47 minutes ago, Jared said:

That sounds like the OIS trying to treat your re-compose movement as camera jiggle, then giving up when it runs out of travel.  The refresh rate on the EVF is quite high, so it shouldn’t “jerk” with movements normally.

Try disabling OIS to see if that fixes the issue you are describing.   

The other possibility I can think of is that the refresh rate has dropped because of low light, so that makes the EVF seem to lag.  Perhaps it’s a combination of both?  Since the OIS would be on under low light situations?  

To be honest, I haven’t observed what you are describing, so I’m just guessing, but at least it would be easy to test to see if I’m right.  

Then I checked, but unfortunately even disabling OIS the incident is repeated constantly becoming more pronounced in underexposure (high f-stop numbers).  The only situation in which this does not occur is when, in P-A-S-M mode, I work in manual time by removing the ring from position A. as there is no trace of this behavior using the automatic programs (AUTO, portrait, sport, etc.).  This is very strange and makes me suspect that the viewfinder really has a problem...

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The problem is the sensor.

Like all, literally all, mirrorless cameras, the Q relies on the lens stopping down to take measurements.

Whereas, with a DSLR you always get an open lens iris, in a mirrorless camera the lens is stopped down.

 

If you close the iris too much, the sensor will starve of light and the EVF refresh rate drops. 

 

In full auto mode, the camera makes sure to get high iso values to keep shutter speed short. In S mode, the iris will open up to let in more light.

 

 

Interestingly,nobody ever mentions that when listing all the marvellous benefits of milc over slrs... 

Edited by mbphotox
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12 hours ago, mbphotox said:

The problem is the sensor.

Like all, literally all, mirrorless cameras, the Q relies on the lens stopping down to take measurements.

Whereas, with a DSLR you always get an open lens iris, in a mirrorless camera the lens is stopped down.

 

If you close the iris too much, the sensor will starve of light and the EVF refresh rate drops. 

 

In full auto mode, the camera makes sure to get high iso values to keep shutter speed short. In S mode, the iris will open up to let in more light.

 

 

Interestingly,nobody ever mentions that when listing all the marvellous benefits of milc over slrs... 

I basically agree, even if it still doesn't seem completely clear to me why in S mode this behavior does not occur, neither with closed nor with open iris.

anyway I found a post dedicated to the Q leica that analyzes the same question

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255204-leica-q-missing-the-decisive-moment/

 

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On 9/8/2019 at 5:31 PM, marcobellardinelli said:

Then I checked, but unfortunately even disabling OIS the incident is repeated constantly becoming more pronounced in underexposure (high f-stop numbers).  The only situation in which this does not occur is when, in P-A-S-M mode, I work in manual time by removing the ring from position A. as there is no trace of this behavior using the automatic programs (AUTO, portrait, sport, etc.).  This is very strange and makes me suspect that the viewfinder really has a problem...

Ah, I had misunderstood your issue significantly—didn’t read it carefully enough or absorb it properly.  Yes, when you are in any mode where the aperture is determined by you not the camera, i.e., A and M, as soon as you half depress the shutter to focus or take a light meter reading the camera also stops down the aperture so you can see the depth of field you are going to get and so you can get an accurate exposure preview.  If it is dark in your environment, then the shutter speed chosen will be relatively long.  Let’s assume the camera is going to select something like ⅛ of a second or ¼ of a second.  That also becomes the refresh rate on the EVF so it can show you an accurate exposure preview.  That will result in a jerky EVF as you recompose.  

In shutter priority or any of the fully automatic modes, under the same light conditions the camera will want to choose a fast enough shutter speed to avoid blur.  To accomplish this, the aperture is left wide open.  Even if you manually select a slower shutter like ⅛ of a second, the camera doesn’t actually use that shutter speed for the EVF until it actually must.  Instead, it will start to raise ISO higher than you have chosen—just for the EVF view.  Lose enough light, such that even a high ISO and wide open lens won’t allow a fast shutter speed, and you will start to see the jerky movement in S mode just as you do in A and M modes.

I’m not sure quite why Leica made these choices.  I expect they stop down to the indicated aperture in A and M modes so you can see depth of field.  In P and S modes, presumably you aren’t trying to control depth of field so it can leave the aperture open till you depress the shutter fully.  That much makes sense to me.  What I’m not sure about is why they don’t bump up the ISO in A and M mode to higher levels before reducing the refresh rate.  In any event, this is clearly what is happening.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/9/2019 at 2:23 PM, NW67 said:

The EVF on the Q2 is definitely better than the one on the Q and certainly better than the one on the M10

neil

I agree, it's a very good EVF. I am using a Zacuto magnifier x3 on my Panasonic GH5's screen (1,620,000 screen dots) and was a bit anxious about being forced to use only the EVF on the Q2, but I must admit I am truly pleased with it. I can see as well as with the Zacuto on the GH5's screen.

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