Buying the M10

[Flyer]

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OK guys I have been on a rollercoster ride with various Leica Options for the past 6 weeks ever since I decide to dip my toe in the Leica world. I have learned a lot through all the help on this forum, I go to Italy for 10 days at the end of the month so need to make my mind up soon. 

Here's where I am currently 

SL.  Disgaded due to size weight and price of lenses. 

CL. Disgaded because felt the body was  too hollow and cheap and the lenses are expensive but slow. 

Q2. Under consideration but feel the lack of ability to change focal length prohibitive

M10 Under consideration but could only afford entry level zeiss lenses, also unsure about the rangefinder experience, see below 

When using a rangefinder I believe one option is to to pre focus but how does this work on a cloudy day if you need to get say 1/125 but want to make sure your are in focus so would need to use say f8 on a 35mm f2.8. Wouldn't this mean cranking up the ISO to maybe 3200 or even 6400?

Orderneraly that would be fine for street as you may not want a clean image, but for other stuff it could be too noisy. 

On closer subjects say 3-4 feet away would managing parallax be an issue on the M10 for a Newby? 

I think I would start with a 35mm and a 50mm to cover my travel needs? 

I would say my photography is split as follows

Landscapes 20%

Travel 35%

Urban 25%

Family 20%

So given my background and needs would you say M10 or Q2

The spanner in the works is still in the back of my mind is the Sony A7r III with a 24-70 and Loxia primes, so my dilemma boils down to sacrifice the versatility for the soul of a Leica!!!! 

Thank you in advance

Flyer

 

[a.noctilux]

Hello Flyer,

 

I see that you had done 95% of the decision 😉.

 

So the only choice IS M10 then.

With 35mm or 50mm, you don't worry for the right framing, as the M10 OVF is the most advanced and bright/big/plenty of eye relief = the best in rangefinder untill now.

Don't worry neither with the RF focus, in day time (even cloudy day), you can use with/without RF focus depend on your subject.

Prefocus is ONLY to take less time, and the normal use of rangefinder is focussing with RF on the subject of interest (then you can use aperture from wide open to close down as you like).

Please don't think of those "what would...", and you will see in use that RF photos ( mostly with M10) can do what you want it to do.

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[pedaes]

To many 'unsures' and 'dilemmas' to spend the money you are talking about. Hope you are happy with the Sony and enjoy your holiday.

[Mute-on]

You don’t actually need a Leica at all. Quite honestly, if you are averse to the Q2, I don’t think there is a new Leica currently available that suits your budget, needs and experience. 

You really should just get an M6 and a 35 summicron and go out and take photos to learn the rangefinder system, and whether it suits you. If you aren’t willing to try that, do yourself a favour and get the Sony with a 24-70 and leave it at that. 

I travel with two Leica M film bodies and two lenses from a selection of 28, 35 and 50. I love using them because they suit my pace and approach. In any event, since I know I take at least 70% of my photos with my widest lens, I would get a Q2. It doesn’t sound to me as though you are near ready to make a similar call. 

Stop beating yourself up over this Leica trip. Go get some great photos on an incredible holiday, and learn your photographic preferences. 

Enjoy!

J

Edited March 12, 2019 by Mute-on

[evikne]

39 minutes ago, Mute-on said:

You don’t actually need a Leica at all.

Who actually needs a Leica? I guess no one really does. But we still want it for different reasons, usually because of the user experience. And I feel that the OP will never get satisfied until he has tried one. If he buy something else, he will always be wondering what he missed.

Edited March 12, 2019 by evikne

[dugby]

2 hours ago, Flyer said:

...

So given my background and needs would you say M10 or Q2

Thank you in advance

Flyer

 

 

Hello Flyer, may I suggest your decision is actually a lot more simple as you have narrowed it down to either M10 or Q2.

Given that both can capture superb photos, and in either you will get your.... Leica "fix".

 

You just need to decide upon whether you can live with "manual" focus only, or wish you'd gone auto focus.

 

[a.noctilux]

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Beware that whichever Leica choosen, take time to learn to know the gear before you travel.

Don't make mistake as buying two days before leaving to a trip.

[Jeff S]

Your questions reinforce recommendations to try an M (or any new camera system) before you buy (rent, demo or buy... new or used... old model or current).  

I use the M 10 at or near base ISO (typically no more than 640), RF only, on cloudy days with no focus problems, just like the prior models. The frame lines automatically shift to accommodate parallax on any M; you don’t need to figure anything out.  A 28/35/50 set has sufficed for my general needs since the 80’s, 90% with the latter two, and frankly I could get by using just one.  But that’s me.  You might feel differently. (Correcting for any vision issues issues, including astigmatism, is important before testing.... glasses and/or diopter.)

Jeff

 

[lucerne]

Oh no!  Pleeeese.  Not another fresh  thread by you concerning your dilemma.  Could you not have continued a previous thread.  Now it appears to new readers that you are starting from the beginning when in fact this evaluation of your needs has been going on since January.

Now, it appears that you have dug up yet another obstacle that you imagine is facing all M10 users.   Parallax!    That’s something I never ever think about because live view is on the body but additionally Leica bodies correct for that possibility in the viewfinder/rangefinder. I’ve never given it a thought. Most Leica lenses (there are exceptions with older lenses and of course telephotos, ) have a close focus distance marked on the body as 0.7m.   No doubt, some of the best scientific minds on the forum will address the issue in great detail and you’ll have to follow their thoughts.  With respect, I won’t bother to read their posts.  More time wasted.

i use my M10 in every type of light.   I’m mostly confined to my dull home in the U.K. at the moment .  It’s winter time here as you well know, so rather colorless.   I practice shooting objects around my room in dim light at night with one sidelight.  . Summicron 35 f/2 asph.     My auto ISO range is set to max out at 6400.  My aperture is wide open. My shutter speed is on auto.   White balance is always on auto.  Everything is set on the external body.  No menu diving!?  All I have to do is focus.  I can’t fail and I’m consistently amazed at how easy it is.  In fact I get a thrill every time and wonder why my previous Canon systems were so variable and unpredictable. (Too many menu options)    No noise.   Can’t  wait to get outdoors again.

I get excellent results indoors and - for example- my camera has shot today indoors at ISO 4000 1/180s f2.

Get the m10 or M240 and one 35mm zeiss or Leica lens and stop looking for problems.    With either of these bodies the opportunities for experimentation and system expansion are endless.  .  

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by lucerne

[olgierdc]

I would consider buying a Leica M262. You will pay half of the price of M10 and you will have money to buy lenses. The difference between M262 and M10 is not significant. As you want enter to landscape, you need a wide angle lens. 21/3.4 is perfect. Unless you are only interested in a new camera.

[lucerne]

I agree, it’s a magnificent lens which I always carry,  but that is another few £thou.   The OP is on a budget. Try to trace all his other threads to understand where he is coming from.  

BUT... no live view.  

The OP lacks rangefinder experience and would want Live View.  We would also have to remind him that there will be no frame guides at 21mm so some matching viewfinder would be advisable.   

Lets not add more complications at this stage.

Edited March 12, 2019 by lucerne

[olgierdc]

19 minutes ago, lucerne said:

I agree, it’s a magnificent lens which I always carry,  but that is another few £thou.   The OP is on a budget. Try to trace all his other threads to understand where he is coming from.  

BUT... no live view.  

The OP lacks rangefinder experience and would want Live View.  We would also have to remind him that there will be no frame guides at 21mm so some matching viewfinder would be advisable.   

Lets not add more complications at this stage.

You're right, but there's always a compromise. However, it is worth to consider all options.

[daveco]

Keep researching, and you will be able to eliminate the M10 option, and replace it with a M11 option.

[a.noctilux]

9 minutes ago, daveco said:

Keep researching, and you will be able to eliminate the M10 option, and replace it with a M11 option.

😊 or M12, M13 🍀 in one or more decade.

[Stealth3kpl]

9 hours ago, Flyer said:

 

1) Q2. Under consideration but feel the lack of ability to change focal length prohibitive

2) M10 Under consideration but could only afford entry level zeiss lenses, also unsure about the rangefinder experience, see below 

 

3) On closer subjects say 3-4 feet away would managing parallax be an issue on the M10 for a Newby? 

4) I think I would start with a 35mm and a 50mm to cover my travel needs? 

 

5) So given my background and needs would you say M10 or Q2

 

1) The 2 will free your mind. The pixel count is very high and the lens is very sharp wide open with beautiful bokeh. You can be in the moment and crop in post. I took mine to Nepal a couple of days after receiving it and it was a great experience.

2) Zeiss lenses are some of the best in the world. They are not entry level. You don't need an M10. Buy an M240 if you want to try with less of an outlay. My first rangefinder experience was with film Leicas. I took them to Yellowstone and loved the experience and the results.

3) I find parallax to be more of an issue with wider angles like 21mm. It's not something you need to be too concerned about with 35 or 50mm

4) Just take a 35mm. My first trip with Leicas was with 35/50mm. I didn't feel like I was missing much.

5) On a recent trip to Nepal, I took the Q and an M240 with a 50mm. Best digital experience I've had. If I had to lose one of the cameras, I would really be torn....Overall, I think the Q would be the one I keep, but I do like using older lenses on the M240. For your trip, if you had to chose one camera and you're uncertain about the parallax issue, go for the Q2. You'll learn to use the tool you have. You'll be lazy with the Sony and a zoom. I took just one film Leica with a 35 Summicron Asph to Cuba and found it liberating.
 

Pete

[JDFlood]

So, you want to buy a Leica? What is you photgrapgic background? What cameras do you own and what do you like about them? Is your style of purchasing buy and hold forever, buy cutting edge, trade sideways, trade up? What do you appreciate about a camera? Many of the worlds greatest photographers used a Leica M... but it is a “photographers camera”. Simple, you control what is going on,no distractions, you and the camera as a extension of youself to capture the nuances of a scene and create a piece of art... not an computer driven system that creates the highest resolution perfect picture every time. I mean perfect in a sterile way. 

My personal experience is that a new camera takes it’s place in my arsenal, not becomes my only camera. I have researched the heck out of each camera for a purpose. Nikon D800 for all photography... then realized I needed a light trail and travel camera, then finally the high-end camera of my dreams the M10. The M10 is my favorite, for street and vacation travel. My Fuji business travel and hazardous conditions, trails. Leica X2 bicycle touring. Fast action D800. Other people have only one camera at a time. 

The M10 is a tool for a craftsmen, one that is competent and spends the time crafting their photographs. That is how I see the M10 anyhow.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, JDFlood said:

So, you want to buy a Leica? What is you photgrapgic background? What cameras do you own and what do you like about them?

I guess you missed the first 5 or 6 threads (really) already on this same one month decision journey.  The following may be the first of the bunch...

Jeff

[Flyer]

Thanks to those who have given considered advice, I guess I need to just bite the bullet 

 

Cheers 

[Mute-on]

Best bang for your hard earned $$ is Q2. It’s a real Leica and the cutting edge of current Leica technology. If I had the funds, I would buy one in an instant, particularly for travel!!!

Get that first. Others will follow in time. 

Welcome to Leica Land 🤪

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Hallo,

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[Mamac]

I had to make the same choice and I chose the M10 with Summilux 50 & 28 

I realy love it (It’s special Leitzpark edition). I love it because you have to think about each picture you take .

But I’m not a professional and I use it as someone who used several autofocus automatic bodies for years. 

There si one think that can make me to sell it: the spot light metering that make me to miss a lot of pictures... It’s realy difficult to achieve without good photoraphic experience...

So I plan to buy the new Q2.