S007 Now or S3 later

[Stuart Richardson]

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I think there is a difference, and I do think that the system still has relevance and a lot to offer. But there are also a lot of other makers that are now giving us a lot for a lot less.

For example, if you want a closer feel in build and interface in a smaller and more compact package, there is the Hasselblad X1. If you want higher resolution and some more modern mirrorless features, there is the upcoming Fuji 100mp, if you want higher resolution in static scenes, native use of Leica lenses, better video, stabilization and better AF, you have the S1R. All of these are at least half the proposed cost, if not much less, while offering things the S cannot offer. They all have drawbacks, especially if you like an optical viewfinder. And on the other hand, the S offers an incredible user experience, superb lenses, all day battery life, an optical viewfinder and image quality that often is better than the competition's offerings at similar megapixel levels. If it cost in the same realm as the competitors it would be very competitive. But they have priced themselves out of competition for most people who are not already in the system. I have of course said this before, but unless they price the S3 aggressively, I think they are going to have an extremely hard time picking up any new users.

[tom0511]

I totally agree that Leica is too silent. I am sure the S system will continue on the market, but why not talk more about the S3 and the s-system in general.

Some may feel its an aging system, but as someone having used S but also the new Fuji and the x1d there are (still) things making the S system special and which are valid today.

 

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[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Jan1985 said:

Look at other manufactures. They come up with new lens design every year. I know Leica is another league and philosophy. But in the other lineups they invested a lot in development.

That's true of consumer cameras, but it's hardly been true of medium format over the years.

It's a different mindset. People who spend 'medium format money' don't appreciate seeing their equipment made obsolete every few years.

I know that Fuji and Hasselblad have been very busy of late, but their systems are completely new. The S system had lots of announcements when it was new too. We can only hope that they do not imitate Sony and release 8 different versions of their standard zoom in 5 years.

[Jeff S]

58 minutes ago, BernardC said:

 We can only hope that they do not imitate Sony and release 8 different versions of their standard zoom in 5 years.

Might have been nice, though, to have improved the 30-90, arguably the least stellar of the arsenal, or to supplement with another different zoom option.  At some point, it seems sales just might not have supported more lenses, even if earlier plans called for more.  I wouldn’t be surprised if the S3 is the end of the line, at least in the current DSLR configuration, although I hope not.

Jeff

[Jan1985]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb tom0511:

I totally agree that Leica is too silent. I am sure the S system will continue on the market, but why not talk more about the S3 and the s-system in general.

Some may feel its an aging system, but as someone having used S but also the new Fuji and the x1d there are (still) things making the S system special and which are valid today.

 

What I can say. Every time I a take a look into a S magazine my eyes like what they see. I am really sure that there is that special look what this system produces. And that was the reason why I was hunting for an S007. 

[erlingmm]

Speculations, speculations due to the deafening silence from Leica. My guess is that everybody who expects new features and low price will be disappointed. My guess is that they are tuning the sensor until we get even better files than the 007 (remember, they have promised improved skin tones etc.), possibly working on AF improvements. If we get this, Profoto TTL, good LR tethering and longer max exposure times, I will be happy.

[Jeff S]

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6 minutes ago, erlingmm said:

Speculations, speculations due to the deafening silence from Leica. My guess is that everybody who expects new features and low price will be disappointed. My guess is that they are tuning the sensor until we get even better files than the 007 (remember, they have promised improved skin tones etc.), possibly working on AF improvements. If we get this, Profoto TTL, good LR tethering and longer max exposure times, I will be happy.

New sensor, new color array...

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

Jeff

[peterv]

12 minutes ago, erlingmm said:

Speculations, speculations due to the deafening silence from Leica. My guess is that everybody who expects new features and low price will be disappointed.

Yes, that is my speculation too 🙂

And that’s why I didn’t want to wait any longer and sank my disposable income in pv panels 🙂

Like I said earlier somewhere in one of these threads, I guess they are first going to squeeze all the money they can get from professionals for whom €24.000 is not a big problem and I guess rental houses. And rightly so, I mean the S system is something really special and if Leica can make a lot of money out of it, they have my blessing. I can wait another year or two for an S3 and right now I’m falling back in love again with my S2-P. There is so much light here at this time of the year, it’s a treat to work with the good old CCD.

 

 

[SaW]

From a discussion with a Leica Pro sales rep.: 2 lenses are in preparation. One fixed, one zoom. Asked for more details but couldn't get any, reason: we are still too far from any production date.

The person who told me that is undoubtably well informed and I'm passing the info as I've heard it, but of course it is always possible that this was only a crafty commercial tchit tchat...

If the S3 is really announced at a 24000eur list price in August (also communicated by the same person) then I'll believe the new lenses info even more.

 

 

[peterv]

30 minutes ago, erlingmm said:

Profoto TTL,

YES!!!

[erlingmm]

Just now, peterv said:

YES!!!

...and this is purely a firmware issue, the Nikon-version could be modified. Profoto may not find this a big enough market, but Leica could support it?

[peterv]

Indeed this has been suggested to Leica on these boards many times, it would be great if they could deliver. I guess there will be a backwards compatibility problem with all the proprietary Leica flashes?

Anyway, to be able to control strong flashlight from a small remote on the hot shoe of my S, would be a dream come true. Like I said, the S system loves lots of light, so that is another argument to finally make this happen and I like the versatile Profoto system a lot.

[erlingmm]

...and it would make the CS lenses even more relevant, too.

[albireo_double]

2 hours ago, erlingmm said:

...and it would make the CS lenses even more relevant, too.

In what sense? You can use Profoto strobes with the Air Sync and Air Remote triggers now and the CS lenses of course already sync at up to 1/1000s with these triggers - so no great benefit from a dedicated Air TTL trigger here. On the other hand, if Profoto released a dedicated Leica Air TTL trigger (just like they have for pretty much all other camera makes), it would do HSS with non-CS lenses, making these perhaps more relevant for people using strobes outside, given the slow sync speed of the S (1/125s). The TTL feature, while not strictly necessary for my use, is nevertheless sometimes useful for establishing initial exposure. The dedicated trigger would be great especially for SL users, because there is no leaf shutter alternative available to them, and no HS/HSS solution other than Priolite (and Priolite is constantly out of stock).

Btw, it seems that the S1/S1R is compatible with the Pana version of the Skyport triggers from Elinchrom - I have seen a video by an NZ photographer using the camera with an ELB500 with HSS. In which case, it should support also HS on the ELB1200 (and therefore make it possible to "over-power the Sun" for those who need to do so).

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Well, for one it would allow the flash control to be automatic, right? At least for me, all my Profoto flash control has been fully manual. Am I missing some obvious setting here to make the flashes meter automatically with the S? That would be more interesting to me than HSS...as far as I am concerned as well, it is the only downside of the A1 flash versus the Metz...the Metz has a metering function so you can put it on A mode (TTL never really worked for me).

[peterv]

I've always gone full manual with all my flashes (Philips, Metz, Sony and some El Cheapo studio BFL flash set, but I come from continuous light and maybe that is a handicap if one later on in his life has to get used to lighting with flashlight. I actually feel that manual is all I need, really - and it keeps me from getting confused because I have full control over the amount of light that is being emitted.

Having said that, a trustworthy Profoto A1 TTL fully functional and seamlessly working together with an S or with a trustworthy A setting on board, could come in handy at the events, especially with an assistant.

[Jan1985]

Last night I had a dream where I worked with an S3 at one of my portrait shoots... and the model said: "Oh nice, I was never photographed with a camera that has 64megapixels... And a Leica, Wow!"... She applauded and congratulated that these were the best 24.000€ I spent in my lifetime...

[Stuart Richardson]

49 minutes ago, peterv said:

I've always gone full manual with all my flashes (Philips, Metz, Sony and some El Cheapo studio BFL flash set, but I come from continuous light and maybe that is a handicap if one later on in his life has to get used to lighting with flashlight. I actually feel that manual is all I need, really - and it keeps me from getting confused because I have full control over the amount of light that is being emitted.

Having said that, a trustworthy Profoto A1 TTL fully functional and seamlessly working together with an S or with a trustworthy A setting on board, could come in handy at the events, especially with an assistant.

Yes, I have mostly gone manual as well, especially with studio strobes. But there have been times when I was more interested in just getting the shot than in creating it, and in those cases it is helpful when the flash to subject distance is changing a lot. Also with film, though I will not really have the luxury of TTL with my Mamiya 7 or 4x5, it would be nice since you do not get to see a preview. So, pulling out the flash meter, connecting it to the air remote, metering, connecting the air remote back to the lens or camera etc. In those circumstances TTL would be useful. It would be a nice option to have, even though it is not something I MUST have.

[albireo_double]

10 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Well, for one it would allow the flash control to be automatic, right? 

I was commenting specifically on the previous post that claimed that a dedicated Air TTL trigger would make the CS lenses, specifically, more relevant. My point was that it would make rather the non-CS lenses more relevant because when shooting with those, one could benefit from HSS, which these dedicated triggers incorporate, whereas with the CS lenses one can  shoot at high sync speeds without bothering with the (power wasting) HSS. Automatic TTL is of course nice to have in situations where you just need to grab the picture as the situation unfolds, or to determine the initial "correct" exposure, after which you can switch to manual (I find this better than staying in TTL because TTL is not always very consistent between shots). In any case, TTL works best with one strobe, typically when shooting with one of the battery units outside.  The TTL triggers get a bit confusing where more than one strobe is used - I tend to go all manual in those cases, preferring to change the settings on the lights themselves. It would be great if Profoto (and other makers) could make their triggers communicate bidirectionally with the packs/lights, so we could see the power set on each group, instead of the current plus/minus/relative numbers. 

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[Stuart Richardson]

Exactly. Your usage case is basically the same as mine...it helps you get there quickly without needing to fiddle around as much.