S007 Now or S3 later

[Jan1985]

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb tom0511:

I think now its Leicas turn to fintune the S3 and bring it to the market and make it so good that we want to buy it.

probably this will be the case. I was so proud to make this nice deal to get the s007. but being confronted with the new s3 I don't know how I will react.

[Photon42]

On 3/26/2019 at 8:34 PM, albireo_double said:

Don't want to contradict other people's experience but I have never experienced problems with focus accuracy, with the S2 and later with the S007. I keep refocusing for each shot, especially with portraits (camera in MF, focusing assigned to the joystick). Almost compulsively, I often press the AF button several times, or focus on something else and then on the eye again, before I release the shutter. If not shooting portraits, I try to find a well defined object in my desired plane of focus, with no possibly confusing neighbour, to place the focusing circle on. The only lens that doesn't always keep up for me is the S100 - I've had a good percentage of mis-focused shots when trying to use it wide open and it hunts enough to annoy me in longer shoots.  This is what I got in an email reply from Leica on 5 October 2015: "We noticed that the 100 mm Summicron sometimes fails to find the contrast points that are necessary for the AF to focus at the right position, specially in lightly dark conditions.That will be fixed with a software update as well. We´re already working on this issue."  Given that Leica seem to have been "working on this issue" for 3.5 years, I am keeping my fingers crossed that it will be addressed in the S3 (the report by ZHNL's friend sounds encouraging).

+1.

I have not had any focussing issues with my S2 so far in almost two years. Zero. I the rare event something went off focus, it was either me or the subject moving at this very moment. Also - I cannot really imagine how there can be focussing issues with wide angle lenses shooting distant objects. I presume, the AF in reality is a certain box dead center in the frame, and probably larger than indicated (the cross hair certainly does not help here). Within that box, the S will prioritise the closest contrast edge. Moving the view frame slightly may give a different result. 

I cannot comment on the 100/2 but the 100/2.2 HC is fine in this regard.

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[mgrayson3]

I have had no problems with S(006) or S(007) focus. Sometimes infinity is tricky, and it pays to learn the exact spot on the "infinity" symbol where it should focus, but they very seldom miss, even wide open. This is, of course, for static subjects. Moving subjects don't work, or I haven't mastered it. But I have other cameras for action.

[helged]

4 minutes ago, mgrayson3 said:

Moving subjects don't work, or I haven't mastered it. But I have other cameras for action.

+1 (but for (quasi-)static subjects, the S is, generally speaking, great). 

[SaW]

I've had the opportunity to test an S3 today.

Body is identical to the S007.

Did not see any change in the menu neither, apart from the iso setting that can go up to 50.000 now.

The AF looked very reactive but so is the S007. The focus noise is different and the Leica rep. told me it has been further optimized on the S3.

Tested my S007 + 70mm and the S3 + 70mm consecutively and only had the impression of a possible AF better performance. In normal condition at least it is no game changer.

Same for the rear LCD. Looked a bit better, crisper. But it can only be due to the LCD screen protection on my S007...

The rep. told me Leica put a lot of effort in producing the best possible sensor with great electronics and new CFA that offer a clear IQ improvement.

Official price will be 24.000eur vat in, availability July/August this year.  Surprisingly good trade-in program for current S users.

I can attest it as I've got an excellent offer (can't say more to respect the disclosure requested by the rep).

My advise to the S owner who thinks about upgrading: do not sell your S body by your own means but ask for a trade-in to Leica, unbeatable !

Edited April 5, 2019 by SaW

[alan.y]

I’m just waiting to be excellently surprised by the surprisingly excellent trade in program. 😬

[Stuart Richardson]

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Thanks for the report...did they mention if the trade-in would be for the S006 and S2 as well, or just the 007?

[SaW]

We discussed that when I met the same guy on a show 2weeks ago,  told me that the trade-in will be offered for all S owners from S2 to S007,  and even more (?).

he also said that it wonˋt last for long (maybe a commercial trick ?).

Anyway, if those info are wrong, donˋt shoot the messenger 🙃, just try to report these information  objectively. The only info I know for sure is the great price offer as it has already been confirmed by e-mail.

 

[Jan1985]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb SaW:

I've had the opportunity to test an S3 today.

Body is identical to the S007.

Did not see any change in the menu neither, apart from the iso setting that can go up to 50.000 now.

The AF looked very reactive but so is the S007. The focus noise is different and the Leica rep. told me it has been further optimized on the S3.

Tested my S007 + 70mm and the S3 + 70mm consecutively and only had the impression of a possible AF better performance. In normal condition at least it is no game changer.

Same for the rear LCD. Looked a bit better, crisper. But it can only be due to the LCD screen protection on my S007...

The rep. told me Leica put a lot of effort in producing the best possible sensor with great electronics and new CFA that offer a clear IQ improvement.

Official price will be 24.000eur vat in, availability July/August this year.  Surprisingly good trade-in program for current S users.

I can attest it as I've got an excellent offer (can't say more to respect the disclosure requested by the rep).

My advise to the S owner who thinks about upgrading: do not sell your S body by your own means but ask for a trade-in to Leica, unbeatable !

Thanks for your report. I bought my S007 last November. Even if it is an older system I don't have the feeling its outdated. It is better than all systems I used before. For me it like in analog times when I choose a certain film to get this special look. That's it. So It is no wonder that it is very difficult to improve such a great system.

What I read in your words is that when you stay with your S007 than you don't make something wrong.

I am interested what it means in relation of Leica pricing is "Great" trade-in price...?

[alan.y]

On 4/5/2019 at 6:10 PM, Jan1985 said:

I am interested what it means in relation of Leica pricing is "Great" trade-in price...?

Me too, because I don't think I've ever seen a good trade-up deal from Leica, or indeed any other manufacturer. They set the MSRPs and then tell you they're giving you a great discount. It's really meaningless: 

http://us.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/Local/USA/2018/Leica-S-Typ-007-Trade-In-Trade-Up-Program

https://leicarumors.com/2018/07/02/leica-m10-added-to-the-m9-ccd-corrosion-upgrade-program.aspx/

I'd *love* to be proven wrong this time.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by alan.y

[SaW]

Before purchasing my S007 I decided to sell  my old S2 body by myself.

It wasn't easy but finaly got a correct offer (5.000eur /about $5.000 at that time).

It was in line with other 2nd hand S2 body available for sale, so by no means a bad deal.

If i would have saved the time and effort to sell my S2 and just traded it in to Leica I would have got 8000eur out of it.

With my math the trade-in offer from Leica would have saved me 2.000 more eur....

To value a trade-in offer it is good to 1st to be aware of the real resale value of your equipment. 

I agree with you that higher list prices and great trade-ins are just another marketing stuff.

If the final amount of cash to spend is the only thing that counts then it is better to pass on the trade-in, wait 2 or 3 more years, hope that your body won't need a non warranty repair, and then buy a new, heavily discounted S3 and sell your old body to get a few more bucks.

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by SaW

[Photon42]

20 hours ago, SaW said:

 

It wasn't easy but finaly got a correct offer (5.000eur /about $5.000 at that time).

If i would have saved the time and effort to sell my S2 and just traded it in to Leica I would have got 8000eur out of it.

With my math the trade-in offer from Leica would have saved me 2.000 more eur....

 

 

Maybe even 3k 😬 I agree the hassle of selling yourself especially with higher priced gear should not be underestimated. Sometimes it is just nice to move it all at once. And some trade-ins aren’t that bad, really.

[peterv]

Hi everyone, since I'm the OP who started this thread, I thought I'd let everybody know how I decided.

 

Because I don't do commissioned work and other freelance photography anymore since we moved to the rural North of the country where there is less interest in 'art' than in the capital, my income from photography has quickly gone south during the past few years. This makes deciding to buy an expensive new camera more difficult and I think the 007 is a wonderful camera, but so is my S2-P (and hopefully it will keep working for a while longer). For the bigger printing and higher ISO that I would really like, I’d be better off with the new S3, which made me come to the conclusion that the latter camera is the one that I really want and need, going further.

 

And then the enthusiasm and interest for the upcoming new S3 on this forum died out some weeks ago after a few people posted that they expected the S3 to cost €24,000, although probably with a nice trade in offer. I don't know if the believed price for the S3 has anything to do with the amount of traffic on this sub-forum, but this forum growing quite silent coincided with some respected members mentioning the 24K amount, which made me wonder of Leica will overplay their hand with this price. My dealer offered me €2000 trade-in for my S2-P and I could imagine that maybe if I bought an S3 I could squeeze out €4000, which would leave €20,000 to pony up. To me, that still is a lot of cash, especially considering all the other offerings by other brands that have, or will come out with a new camera in 2019 and frankly I also think that the 24K number is a bit steep for the upgrade you get compared to - any - earlier S. So in the end, at least for me at the moment, maybe it's all about price. A Leica S3 is what I want, but given where my photography is at the moment, I simply could not justify 24K for an S3, considering the upgrade compared to my S2-P.

 

So I have made a definite decision to buy 27 photovoltaic modules for 10K to put on my roof, after having calculated that they will bring me €1000 per year for the coming 20 years. And I have had to admit to myself that I was not too sure that a 24K S3 could do that for next two decades. So I'll just keep shooting with my trusty S2-P until I win the lottery or maybe I'll buy one in a few years time when I make enough money selling prints during an upcoming exhibition when the dust around the S3 has settled and the price has come down.

 

Thank you all for participating in this thread!

[djmay]

39 minutes ago, peterv said:

Hi everyone, since I'm the OP who started this thread, I thought I'd let everybody know how I decided.

 

Because I don't do commissioned work and other freelance photography anymore since we moved to the rural North of the country where there is less interest in 'art' than in the capital, my income from photography has quickly gone south during the past few years. This makes deciding to buy an expensive new camera more difficult and I think the 007 is a wonderful camera, but so is my S2-P (and hopefully it will keep working for a while longer). For the bigger printing and higher ISO that I would really like, I’d be better off with the new S3, which made me come to the conclusion that the latter camera is the one that I really want and need, going further.

 

And then the enthusiasm and interest for the upcoming new S3 on this forum died out some weeks ago after a few people posted that they expected the S3 to cost €24,000, although probably with a nice trade in offer. I don't know if the believed price for the S3 has anything to do with the amount of traffic on this sub-forum, but this forum growing quite silent coincided with some respected members mentioning the 24K amount, which made me wonder of Leica will overplay their hand with this price. My dealer offered me €2000 trade-in for my S2-P and I could imagine that maybe if I bought an S3 I could squeeze out €4000, which would leave €20,000 to pony up. To me, that still is a lot of cash, especially considering all the other offerings by other brands that have, or will come out with a new camera in 2019 and frankly I also think that the 24K number is a bit steep for the upgrade you get compared to - any - earlier S. So in the end, at least for me at the moment, maybe it's all about price. A Leica S3 is what I want, but given where my photography is at the moment, I simply could not justify 24K for an S3, considering the upgrade compared to my S2-P.

 

So I have made a definite decision to buy 27 photovoltaic modules for 10K to put on my roof, after having calculated that they will bring me €1000 per year for the coming 20 years. And I have had to admit to myself that I was not too sure that a 24K S3 could do that for next two decades. So I'll just keep shooting with my trusty S2-P until I win the lottery or maybe I'll buy one in a few years time when I make enough money selling prints during an upcoming exhibition when the dust around the S3 has settled and the price has come down.

 

Thank you all for participating in this thread!

Everyone needs to decide what is the best use of their money spent.

It should be noted that that probably not a single person on this forum knows what the price of the S3 will be.

The S2 is a fine camera. It delivers image quality just as well as some of the newcomers to the market. This speaks for the quality of the S concept.

Regards,

Jesse

[peterv]

32 minutes ago, djmay said:

The S2 is a fine camera. It delivers image quality just as well as some of the newcomers to the market. This speaks for the quality of the S concept.

Indeed, I’m really happy with my S2 and lenses already!

[Jan1985]

Maybe the potential users of the upcoming S3 are sheiks that just want to make some nice Shots of their falcons. Who don't bother about some thousand Euros more. The S could be a succesful line. But for them who would call it their "workhorse" it is out of range.

[hoppyman]

No S3 prices have been announced though, there is only speculation. I recall when stock became available of the S (Typ 007) the price actually dropped significantly.

My speculation is that the S3 whenever available will be aimed at exactly the same market segment as the system has always been.

[peterv]

Perhaps, but I tend to agree with Jan, and I feel that they could have easily announced the price already so that indeed people who are planning to use the S3 as their workhorse could do some financial planning. Photokina is eight, nine months behind us so leaving people in the dark with respect to the price of a camera that was announced so long ago … I don't know, with all due respect, I think us loyal S customers should have known the price by now and we could also do with an explanation from Leica why all this takes longer than expected, in September it was said the camera would be available by the end of the year, 2018 that is. 

 

So for now all this uncertainty and the deafening silence has made them lose one potential customer, I'm sorry to say.

Edited May 9, 2019 by peterv
typo

[Stuart Richardson]

It certainly does not feel like a vibrant camera system these days...still, I look forward to seeing what they come up with. I hope they sort out whatever issues the camera may have and that we see it on the market soon. The longer it takes, the more compelling options show up on the scene, and consequently the harder case it is to make to pay as much as they will likely demand. I am still very interested in the camera, but I agree that Leica's policy of utter silence around their future plans is really not serving them well here. While I understand their idea that they have fleshed out the system enough for most needs, I think they miss how important little details can be in making people feel like a system is being supported. For example, even though there has not been a lens in years, if they had released something...anything in that time, it would feel less dire. What about an extension tube or bellows or tele-converter....anything would make it look like they are at least thinking about the S system. As it is now, the last lens released was in the summer of 2014...five years ago. I am not aware of any major accessories since then other than the S adapter L. That is ages and ages ago in camera terms.

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[Jan1985]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Stuart Richardson:

It certainly does not feel like a vibrant camera system these days...still, I look forward to seeing what they come up with. I hope they sort out whatever issues the camera may have and that we see it on the market soon. The longer it takes, the more compelling options show up on the scene, and consequently the harder case it is to make to pay as much as they will likely demand. I am still very interested in the camera, but I agree that Leica's policy of utter silence around their future plans is really not serving them well here. While I understand their idea that they have fleshed out the system enough for most needs, I think they miss how important little details can be in making people feel like a system is being supported. For example, even though there has not been a lens in years, if they had released something...anything in that time, it would feel less dire. What about an extension tube or bellows or tele-converter....anything would make it look like they are at least thinking about the S system. As it is now, the last lens released was in the summer of 2014...five years ago. I am not aware of any major accessories since then other than the S adapter L. That is ages and ages ago in camera terms.

It always seems that Leica is immunized against all dynamics that market dictates the manufacturers. Some call this arrogance or a missing sense for reality. Do they consciously prepare the graveyard for the S Line? You are right. If they REALLY would invest in this system they had been released new lenses. Look at other manufactures. They come up with new lens design every year. I know Leica is another league and philosophy. But in the other lineups they invested a lot in development. 

What I love about the S is that this distinctive special look the lenses produce. You know what I mean? Even that are "only" 38MPX. They render so nicely. But I guess there is not much difference to FF system today... or?