S007 Now or S3 later

[Jeff S]

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1 hour ago, albertknappmd said:

 

No one would seriously contemplate upgrading their camera solely because of a larger sensor.  

 

Primarily new sensor (of course you didn’t mean larger) and color filter array, according to the product manager...

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

Excerpt....

What has changed for the S3?

Primarily, we have changed the sensor, increasing the resolution from 37.5 to 64 Megapixels while improving overall image quality.

 

A company might do this if it’s trying to squeeze the most out of a last generation product.

Jeff

Edited March 25, 2019 by Jeff S

[albertknappmd]

8 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Primarily new sensor (of course you didn’t mean larger) and color filter array, according to the product manager...

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

Excerpt....

What has changed for the S3?

Primarily, we have changed the sensor, increasing the resolution from 37.5 to 64 Megapixels while improving overall image quality.

 

A company might do this if they’re trying to squeeze the most out of a last generation product.

Jeff

I doubt that Leica would be that foolish or that obvious...

Let us see what other goodies are in the S3...

Suspect other improvements and hoping for better AF.

Albert

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[Stuart Richardson]

With respect to focus, I use back button focus with the lens set to manual. I am mostly happy with it, but have had some focus troubles, particularly with landscape work and shorter lenses. I think the AF area of the Leica is fairly large and prioritises closer objects, so when you point a wider lens at a landscape it often focuses in the middle of the area as opposed to infinity. I have taken to visually confirming focus on the lens barrel in certain situations. If you are focusing on something mostly in one plane, like a portrait, building, tree or so on, I have found it to be very accurate. I think many of the focusing issues are less from the camera failing than the actual AF point being somewhat nebulous. 

As for what might change in the S3...in some ways I think this incremental change can be great...rather than starting from scratch, they can refine and improve, which means that the camera is more likely to be more reliable and stable. I experienced this with a number of different products. My printer in the studio used to be the Epson 9900...great quality but quite fussy and clogged at the drop of a hat. The newer P9000 is nearly identical with a newer ink set, but it is MUCH better...far more reliable and less likely to clog. It is not perfect, but a lot better. The same with my car...the company made a version one in 2004, a version 2 in 2009, and I bought mine new in 2016...the earlier models had reliability and QC issues, but by the time they got to mine, it is mostly sorted. Mine is fantastic and I have had no issue with reliability and the car as a whole feels like everything has been sorted expertly, as they had years to get it all right. Hopefully the S3 can follow this model...to take everything that is great about the S2, S006 and S007 and refine them to the best possible degree. 

[albireo_double]

I really don't get where this hope for "better AF" comes from. From all that I have read and heard, the S3 will be the S007 with a new, higher resolution, higher DR, better colour sensor. 
Improved AF to me would mean multiple AF points, which I do not expect. I don't care if the present single AF point system focuses 10% faster, or even 25% faster (and that assuming it does not shred the "permanent solution" AF gears in the lenses). The reason I don't care is that I will not be able to use the camera in a different way. I will still have to focus and recompose, and for that way of working, the S007 is good enough as it is (ok, my S100 hunts and could be improved). Having multiple focus points would mean "improved AF" to me, but even then, like in pretty much all DSLRs, they would not cover enough of the viewfinder area to be hugely useful. In the sense, for example, that if I wish to place a person's eye, in a portrait shoot, in a "rules of thirds" position, I need to have a focusing point in that area.  But that unfortunately is the domain of mirrorless now and very unlikely to change in the S3. Some kind of "True Focus" solution would also be useful, but I assume Leica would have boasted about it back in September if it were on the cards. 

[Jeff S]

22 minutes ago, albertknappmd said:

I doubt that Leica would be that foolish or that obvious...

Let us see what other goodies are in the S3...

Suspect other improvements and hoping for better AF.

Albert

The article and interview covers lots of improvements and benefits....sure to be marketed just as effectively as the relatively modest 37.5 MP S007.  But at the heart, there’s the new sensor (with more improvements than just MP) and a new color filter array.  Even the processor is the same, as apparently is the body itself.

The last thing Leica wants, I’m sure, is to have another major AF f**k-up on its hands.  Leaving well enough alone at this point would be a win; anything more is gravy.

We’ll see.

Jeff

[ZHNL]

I don't want to be like a break records about S's AF. AF spot's big Coverage is only one of the issues. I don't personally care about focus speed and I agree even Leica improve speed 100% is still not good enough to track moving stuff. Half baked improvement on speed do nothing for me. and I don't need multiple AF point. Focus and recompose error only happen at close distance and I will use manual focus to fine tune anyway in that case, especially given AF spot is so huge that you can't control focus on eye slashes or eye ball anyway. 

However, I do get consistence problem with even AFS. For example, Shooting a well defined target such as light pole use blank sky as background, you will get slightly different focus result on each images. It will be easily shown in your image at 37M not to mention future 64M. This problem was carry over from S2 until S007. With S007, you could point to the same exact target and do the focus and read distance information from top LCD. You can easily see it give you different reading out of 10 times you shoot. For landscape f11 shooting or WA glass, you might be fine with minor focus error, even I still don't like the fact my final results are at mercy of Camera's AF decision.  If you do portrait or any wide aperture shooting, you DO NEED to be careful. 

I strongly believe Leica can improve this. And I do heard someone who has first hand experience with S3 claim there is such an improvement. (This is the first thing I will verify once S3 hit on market) 

 

[mgrayson3]

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Nothing matters but the copy of the S3 that ends up in your hands. If you like it, great. If you don't like it, you can try another copy, stick with an older S, or switch systems. To paraphrase Hamlet, the rest is noise.

[ynp]

3 hours ago, albertknappmd said:

Because no serious company would sell a new and very costly product with only an IMPROVED sensor after a 4 year hiatus...

 

Let’s wait and see if the AF is better. I hope you are right and Leica has some surprises prepared. I am being told that the color will be much better, but  I cannot say that I am not happy with the color response of my S2P. 

[Jeff S]

14 minutes ago, ynp said:

Let’s wait and see if the AF is better. I hope you are right and Leica has some surprises prepared. I am being told that the color will be much better, but  I cannot say that I am not happy with the color response of my S2P. 

The color improvements have been stessed by various sources, including Leica... see above link...also dynamic range, low light capability, heat management, etc.

Jeff

[tom0511]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb ZHNL:

I don't want to be like a break records about S's AF. AF spot's big Coverage is only one of the issues. I don't personally care about focus speed and I agree even Leica improve speed 100% is still not good enough to track moving stuff. Half baked improvement on speed do nothing for me. and I don't need multiple AF point. Focus and recompose error only happen at close distance and I will use manual focus to fine tune anyway in that case, especially given AF spot is so huge that you can't control focus on eye slashes or eye ball anyway. 

However, I do get consistence problem with even AFS. For example, Shooting a well defined target such as light pole use blank sky as background, you will get slightly different focus result on each images. It will be easily shown in your image at 37M not to mention future 64M. This problem was carry over from S2 until S007. With S007, you could point to the same exact target and do the focus and read distance information from top LCD. You can easily see it give you different reading out of 10 times you shoot. For landscape f11 shooting or WA glass, you might be fine with minor focus error, even I still don't like the fact my final results are at mercy of Camera's AF decision.  If you do portrait or any wide aperture shooting, you DO NEED to be careful. 

I strongly believe Leica can improve this. And I do heard someone who has first hand experience with S3 claim there is such an improvement. (This is the first thing I will verify once S3 hit on market) 

 

I like shooting the S 007 at wider f-stops for portraits and the inconsistent AF is also the problem I experience. My camera and lenses is now at Leica and I hope they can improve/ there was some fault that can be optimized.

I am not sure how much the S3 can improve, I hope so but I wont believe until I see it.

Consistent AF is -IMO - the most important criteria for the success of the S system in the future. The best sensor doesnt help if focus is wrong.

In regards of how I focus: My eyes are good but not good enough to do it manually - so I would appreciate to have a focus system which can focus on an eye and deliver a sharp eye.

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by tom0511

[peterv]

Yeah, one-button eye focus 'd be great. But I'm afraid it won't happen in the S3, we would need constant live-view (MILC) for that, eye focus works with contrast detection, IIRC.

My way of focussing is half press shutter button, focus and recompose. Don't have much mis-focussed images in my 6 years with my S2-P. But it's an unreliable little machine in strong backlight, with small objects, and can - like others have mentioned - show erratic behaviour.

For instance, if I need to focus at something at 15 meters, I put the cross-hears on 3 meter and let the lens move there, then back to 15 meters for the second shot. This works better for me than focussing on the same target twice. In that case it may go from 15 to 13. But focus from a point which is a relatively long throw on the lens and mine seems much more accurate. Most of my photography is so slow, I always get more than one chance because I don't shoot fast moving objects, so I always allow for focus errors and take a few shots with every time a separate focussing procedure as described above.

[peterv]

Oh and one more thing, if we're putting together a wish list for the S3:

I came across an old slide used I think by Leitz Cine Wetzlar - as Sonderoptic call themselves nowadays - that showed that 16:9 on the Leica Pro Format sensor is actually larger than the Alexa 65 in 16:9 mode 🙂

 

The S system could generate so much more interests from the video and cinema world if Leica can come up with a useful professional codec, just sayin’ 🙂

[peterv]

3 hours ago, ZHNL said:

And I do heard someone who has first hand experience with S3 claim there is such an improvement.

That's the first time I heard from someone having first hand experience, please tell us more. I mean, we could really do with someone sharing her/his first impressions, because by now it's been more than six month since the announcement.

[peterv]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think the AF area of the Leica is fairly large and prioritises closer objects, so when you point a wider lens at a landscape it often focuses in the middle of the area as opposed to infinity ... If you are focusing on something mostly in one plane, like a portrait, building, tree or so on, I have found it to be very accurate. I think many of the focusing issues are less from the camera failing than the actual AF point being somewhat nebulous. 

I completely agree and I think the above is the reason for users having trouble with 100% reliable and accurate focus on the S system. Personally, I don't see Leica change the AF module or otherwise improve on that in the S3, but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised.

[Photon42]

Maybe someone with that AF issue opens another thread. Can't be this is the only reason we sit in this  S007/S3 money spending quandary 😂 

[SaW]

As several posts are about AF issues with the S I just want to digress a bit by sharing my experience:

AF inconsistancy was one of the main reasons for me to upgrade from the S2 to the S007.

I've found the S007 to be more efficient but still not accurate enough for critical sharpness.

For landscape with wide angle lenses it is not possible (at least for me) to assess the focus by eye so I'm using live view zooming and a hoodman loupe to check the focus.

It is quite funny to use on tripod but also with a bit of practice handholding the camera (the hood is not attached to the camera in any way, just hold pressed to it).

I'm also using the angle finder in different kind of ways but mostly for table top like photos with camera on tripod. It makes it easier to check the viewfinder thanks to its 90° angle and its x2 optical zoom greatly helps manually setting the focus with perfect accuracy.

With those accessories it is possible to acquire perfect focus at short and long distances and to make it easier to shoot with the camera placed at difficult angles.

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Edited March 26, 2019 by SaW

[ZHNL]

17 hours ago, peterv said:

That's the first time I heard from someone having first hand experience, please tell us more. I mean, we could really do with someone sharing her/his first impressions, because by now it's been more than six month since the announcement.

Hi, Peter, he is a pro and was a Leica S user before and consider come back to S system after trying different MF systems. He demoed the preproduction S3 with 100cron. He claimed focus is fast quiet without hunting and images during demo in correct focus. He also claimed there is definitely improvement on AF. I trust him  personally however, Without controlled test I can’t put all weight on it yet even though I would not be too surprised that will happen.

Increase sensor resolution imply a lot more than resolution itself as a system. I think Leica understand the implication.

D800 get burned right away until D810, Nikon improved AF accuracy issue. (Not that left side problem but general AF accuracy improvement.)

[peterv]

Thanks, all we can do right now is wait and hope for the best 🙂

Although like I said, it has been more than six month since Photokina and I hope Leica will soon lift any embargoes so that S3 testers will be able to publish some initial user reviews.

[albireo_double]

Don't want to contradict other people's experience but I have never experienced problems with focus accuracy, with the S2 and later with the S007. I keep refocusing for each shot, especially with portraits (camera in MF, focusing assigned to the joystick). Almost compulsively, I often press the AF button several times, or focus on something else and then on the eye again, before I release the shutter. If not shooting portraits, I try to find a well defined object in my desired plane of focus, with no possibly confusing neighbour, to place the focusing circle on. The only lens that doesn't always keep up for me is the S100 - I've had a good percentage of mis-focused shots when trying to use it wide open and it hunts enough to annoy me in longer shoots.  This is what I got in an email reply from Leica on 5 October 2015: "We noticed that the 100 mm Summicron sometimes fails to find the contrast points that are necessary for the AF to focus at the right position, specially in lightly dark conditions.That will be fixed with a software update as well. We´re already working on this issue."  Given that Leica seem to have been "working on this issue" for 3.5 years, I am keeping my fingers crossed that it will be addressed in the S3 (the report by ZHNL's friend sounds encouraging).

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[tom0511]

I think now its Leicas turn to fintune the S3 and bring it to the market and make it so good that we want to buy it.