peterv Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share #61 Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) On 3/20/2019 at 9:33 PM, ZHNL said: Leica will beat your expectation every time LOL I have a feeling you could very well be right 🙂 I concur with Martin’s scenario: On 3/19/2019 at 9:31 PM, albireo_double said: My conclusion: it seems that Leica's plan is to market the S3 to existing users only initially, "skim" them, and discount the S3 heavily afterwards, to spread the development and tooling costs across a higher number of units sold. And you know, all we can do at the moment is speculate, I whish Leica would announce the price already. Edited March 21, 2019 by peterv 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Hi peterv, Take a look here S007 Now or S3 later. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
peterv Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share #62 Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) On 3/20/2019 at 10:53 PM, albireo_double said: My point is that even if you and I and anybody else agree on these points (hey, my GFX system is leaving the door this week, to make room for the S3), the world outside is overwhelmingly enjoying the utility, IQ and value for money that the Fuji MF system delivers - hobby photographers and pros alike. I agree, this is one of the problems for expanding the S system. Whether I like the Fuji offerings, or whether anyone here thinks some lenses may be up to their standards or not, fact is that during that unfortunate blackout today (the forum was closed because of the European regulations and I stand behind Andreas) I took some extra free time to take another look at the Fuji system and I sure can understand why it is attractive to a lot of people, professional and amateur alike. Cheers, Peter Edited March 21, 2019 by peterv Typo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted March 23, 2019 Share #63 Posted March 23, 2019 I am with most of you all here. I would love to stay in the S system, and I probably will one way or another. As much as I value resolution, and as much as I am frustrated with the 37mp ceiling that the current S system has, I think the biggest differentiation between the S system and its competitors is primarily in the lens line and the handling. The S does not really have competitors in that sense...Phase One and Hasselblad H are the only other MF DSLRs, and they are bigger, slower, heavier, more expensive cameras with no weather sealing. They are geared heavily towards studio work, though of course some photographers use them in the field as well. The Fuji, Hasselblad X series are EVF and fundamentally different to use. The Hasselblad X series may have gotten better since I last tried it, but I found it astoundingly bad...the EVF was unpleasant and the shutter lag was long enough that it felt disruptive. I also tried the Fuji and liked that better. What I did not like, however, was again the EVF and the overall feel of working with the camera, as well as the color and look of the files. I just did not like it...I will readily concede, however, that the technical characteristics were great -- it was very sharp, the lens was impressive, the handling much better than with many cameras. But I did not really enjoy using it. The S, on the other hand, I appreciate every time I pick it up. I am currently on a trip to make work. Yesterday there was a large storm here, winds in the area I was in were up to 100km/hr, and up to 140km/hr in the highlands. I was mostly stuck in the apartment I am staying in, but I put on everything I owned and went out to take a few pictures. The wind was strong enough that even with a full hood and hat on, it was not comfortable to face into the wind until I put on some sunglasses. It was difficult to stand still. I used the S and 180mm lens and was able to handle it perfectly in mittens, see clearly through the VF with sunglasses, and the long lens hood perfectly protected the front element from the blowing snow and glare. Every shot was sharp across the entire frame. I have lived with this camera system for 8 years and have yet to find anything better. Certain systems might have more resolution, faster operation, lower costs, more lens options, etc etc. But nothing is better at the fundamentals...at least for me. I know that my usage case is pretty uncommon. I will certainly also look at other options, but I keep coming back to the S for a reason, and I truly hope that Leica can deliver the S3 at a price I can stomach, as the system truly is exceptional. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 8 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/294962-s007-now-or-s3-later/?do=findComment&comment=3707719'>More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted March 23, 2019 Share #64 Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) Well said, Stuart. There is nothing changed why S attract me. I personally will not get any other medium format system and most importantly stay with it for so many years. If I was not S users, i might get GFX XD to adapt some fancy glasses I have but most likely quit them after half year or so. I think If not with S, I will just ride on 35mm revolution. There are something I like to see it happen such as more consistent AF, flip LCD, auto sensor clean, no mandatory NR, AF fine tune and better color etc.... what if none of these happen? I will still happily stay and get S3 anyway at certain time. Commitment to Any system require you take the trade off. It is always like that and I fully understand it. I think S is still the one I will take. Edited March 23, 2019 by ZHNL 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted March 23, 2019 Share #65 Posted March 23, 2019 Indeed, with the S(007) and soon S3 the high ISO is so good that I rarely use my M system.... john Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted March 23, 2019 Share #66 Posted March 23, 2019 Not to b a coubting Thomas or a Cassandra but.... The S3 better deliver SUPERIOR ISO capability and SUPERIOR AF... If so the system survives.. Albert Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albireo_double Posted March 24, 2019 Share #67 Posted March 24, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) How can the S3 deliver superior AF when we have been told that the only difference between the S007 and the S3 will be the new sensor? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 24, 2019 Share #68 Posted March 24, 2019 53 minutes ago, albireo_double said: How can the S3 deliver superior AF when we have been told that the only difference between the S007 and the S3 will be the new sensor? Software firmware update to the algorithm. S owners are easily pleased even with a 10% increase in speed, so Leica's good in that area. I don't see the point, if there's a new AF module that increase speed... the lens AF gear might not handle it again... I remember how this thing occur in the first place. The new firmware update from the S006 that increase AF slightly basically started all my AF motor gear downfall... anyway, this is just my speculation, but I really don't think one should wish for a more instantaneous AF action, the AF on the S is as good as it's going to be.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted March 24, 2019 Share #69 Posted March 24, 2019 1 hour ago, xiaubauu2009 said: Software firmware update to the algorithm. S owners are easily pleased even with a 10% increase in speed, so Leica's good in that area. I don't see the point, if there's a new AF module that increase speed... the lens AF gear might not handle it again... I remember how this thing occur in the first place. The new firmware update from the S006 that increase AF slightly basically started all my AF motor gear downfall... anyway, this is just my speculation, but I really don't think one should wish for a more instantaneous AF action, the AF on the S is as good as it's going to be.... Mainly is accuracy than speed. Within S line, different lens has noticeable different focus speed. I personally don’t need it track moving stuff but I need it give reliable results that I can depend on if I use it. S glasses can benefit from modern focus motor design but again it’s not priority for considering this system. It wouldn’t surprise me they will update AF sensor after 10 years. It can’t be easily specified on paper. Maybe that is the reason we don’t hear anything? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 25, 2019 Share #70 Posted March 25, 2019 9 hours ago, ZHNL said: Mainly is accuracy than speed. Within S line, different lens has noticeable different focus speed. I personally don’t need it track moving stuff but I need it give reliable results that I can depend on if I use it. S glasses can benefit from modern focus motor design but again it’s not priority for considering this system. It wouldn’t surprise me they will update AF sensor after 10 years. It can’t be easily specified on paper. Maybe that is the reason we don’t hear anything? Well, if you don't have an update AF motor/mechanism, it will not improve much. I think it is already running at is maximum tolerance, note the near 100% fail rate of the focus motor from just some firmware update to AF algorithm... Updating the AF on the S lens is just not realistic at this late in the game. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
349A Posted March 25, 2019 Share #71 Posted March 25, 2019 33 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said: Well, if you don't have an update AF motor/mechanism, it will not improve much. I think it is already running at is maximum tolerance, note the near 100% fail rate of the focus motor from just some firmware update to AF algorithm... Updating the AF on the S lens is just not realistic at this late in the game. The lenses optically were 10 years ahead, mechanically they’re now 10 years behind. That being said, the AF is fast enough for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted March 25, 2019 Share #72 Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said: Well, if you don't have an update AF motor/mechanism, it will not improve much. I think it is already running at is maximum tolerance, note the near 100% fail rate of the focus motor from just some firmware update to AF algorithm... Updating the AF on the S lens is just not realistic at this late in the game. Actually, I think the mis focus come from AF sensor module than lens. Again, if we are talking about speed, yes, motor is at least one part of it.(the other would be process speed of AF engine) If we are talking about accuracy, then it is mainly from dedicate AF sensor in body. So, I believe we will see improvement. Just like all those AF Nikkor get better with each update from their SLR with the same motor. So is the accuracy and speed always get better on Dx than Dxxx body or Dxxxx consumer body. Edited March 25, 2019 by ZHNL Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 25, 2019 Share #73 Posted March 25, 2019 2 hours ago, ZHNL said: Actually, I think the mis focus come from AF sensor module than lens. Again, if we are talking about speed, yes, motor is at least one part of it.(the other would be process speed of AF engine) If we are talking about accuracy, then it is mainly from dedicate AF sensor in body. So, I believe we will see improvement. Just like all those AF Nikkor get better with each update from their SLR with the same motor. So is the accuracy and speed always get better on Dx than Dxxx body or Dxxxx consumer body. Hmm, yes, normally you can chuck a much more aggressive algorithm to the AF module or processing and the lens AF motor/gear will handle it, but do you dare to increase a more vigorous logic to the AF mechanism of the S lens? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlingmm Posted March 25, 2019 Share #74 Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) I am just curious about how those who complain about AF, actually use focus? I have always used "manual" focus by thumb pushing the back button (joystick). I then adjust manually, or push again if I am not entirely happy. Some may use "normal AF" on the release button. Of course, both should work, but it would be interesting to know it there is a systemic difference from the way it is used. Please respond with Manual/Automatic, and Happy/OK/Unhappy Edited March 25, 2019 by erlingmm Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 25, 2019 Share #75 Posted March 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, erlingmm said: I am just curious about how those who complain about AF, actually use focus? I have always used "manual" focus by thumb pushing the back button (joystick). I then adjust manually, or push again if I am not entirely happy. Some may use "normal AF" on the release button. Of course, both should work, but it would be interesting to know it there is a systemic difference from the way it is used. Please respond with Manual/Automatic, and Happy/OK/Unhappy I used the same technique as yours. and pretty happy with it. It's funny when I moved to GFX and try to replicated that interface and never really enjoy it on the Fuji as much as I have on the S.The response time on the S is way faster! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted March 25, 2019 Share #76 Posted March 25, 2019 18 minutes ago, erlingmm said: I am just curious about how those who complain about AF, actually use focus? I have always used "manual" focus by thumb pushing the back button (joystick). I then adjust manually, or push again if I am not entirely happy. Some may use "normal AF" on the release button. Of course, both should work, but it would be interesting to know it there is a systemic difference from the way it is used. Please respond with Manual/Automatic, and Happy/OK/Unhappy On S006: Manual and Happy... (for quasi-static subjects; which is what I use the S for). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted March 25, 2019 Share #77 Posted March 25, 2019 On both S2/S006&s007 with manual and back button AFS, not happy if rely on AF. Happy if AF with manual focus combined or mainly manual focus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted March 25, 2019 Share #78 Posted March 25, 2019 37 minutes ago, erlingmm said: I am just curious about how those who complain about AF, actually use focus? I have always used "manual" focus by thumb pushing the back button (joystick). I then adjust manually, or push again if I am not entirely happy. Some may use "normal AF" on the release button. Of course, both should work, but it would be interesting to know it there is a systemic difference from the way it is used. Please respond with Manual/Automatic, and Happy/OK/Unhappy And I did the test using shutter half press, there is no accuracy difference between how you engage the focus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photon42 Posted March 25, 2019 Share #79 Posted March 25, 2019 I have focussing and release decoupled on my S2. If I jump from short to long distance, I tend to focus completely manual (turning the lens barrel), then pressing the back button for th past “mile”. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted March 25, 2019 Share #80 Posted March 25, 2019 On 3/24/2019 at 10:04 AM, albireo_double said: How can the S3 deliver superior AF when we have been told that the only difference between the S007 and the S3 will be the new sensor? Because no serious company would sell a new and very costly product with only an IMPROVED sensor after a 4 year hiatus... There have been significant improvements in AF technology since 2014 to with the SL AF. Therefore, one would hope that the Wetzlar engineers have adapted the SL technology to the S (if feasible). Same with CPU, cache etc.... No one would seriously contemplate upgrading their camera solely because of a larger sensor. Albert Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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