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S007 Now or S3 later

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2 hours ago, alan.y said:

Is your dealer also trying to sell you an S 007?

I certainly hope your info turns out to be accurate, but I would be very surprised if so!

Or perhaps it means Leica is going to price the S3 at $25k!

I own a 007 and I asked about moving to a S3 when available. Thats when he gave me his theory. I’m unsure if it’s something he heard through the grapevine or wishful thinking. I’m hopeful it’s the former. Without a trade in allowance of $10-12k, I’ll be sticking with the 007. Higher iso and more MP are nice, especially higher iso, their is a limit on how much I’m willing to pay for that. 

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I got my S007 in November last year for 6000€. Maybe the price will go down even more. But I am interested how much the S3 will cost. For my taste this camera is too expensive. Even if it is a Leica... 10.000€ would be a fair price on the market. But it's Leica and we pay also the brand.

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I've read somewhere that the European price of the S3 will be Eur22k incl. VAT. Heard the same from my dealer recently, except I am not sure if they are just quoting the same source or they know for sure. I'd be surprised if Leica offered an attractive trade-in program, although it would make some sense because they could rebuild the S007s they get in parts exchange into S3s, given that everything except the sensor stays the same. Leica could then even offer these new old S3 for a somewhat reduced price, with full warranty. This could perhaps be a profitable way to "price discriminate", like P1 do with their refurbished backs, and also to make a gesture towards "saving the planet". Maybe call them "S3 Eco". As I've already said on this forum, an attractive trade-in price for my S007, plus fixing the broken LR Tether Plugin, still remain my conditions for buying the S3 (I have seven S lenses, so I am a bit "invested" in the system). I know I sound like a broken record regarding the tether plugin; doing it only in the hope that someone at Leica reads this forum from time to time.

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2 hours ago, Jan1985 said:

I got my S007 in November last year for 6000

Jan, was this an untouched, brand new camera with two year warranty? Including VAT?

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2 hours ago, Jan1985 said:

Even if it is a Leica... 10.000€ would be a fair price on the market.

Agreed, €10K sounds very interesting and fair in today’s market, but I don’t keep my hopes up too high. Argghh, knowing Leica, 23K sounds more like it, especially until the rich high end fashion and lifestyle photographers of this world are served. Maybe in two years time we’ll start to see cheaper white/open box offers. At least, that’s been the normal chain of events during the past 10 years.

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb peterv:

Jan, was this an untouched, brand new camera with two year warranty? Including VAT?

No it was a used one but in very good condition. I got it together with the 70mm Summarit CS and 120mm CS with new autofocus motors.

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It would be great if there were some sort of trade-in, but in that case Leica would surely need to subsidize it for the dealers. Unfortunately, with dealers it is mostly better to just sell it yourself on the open market, as they of course need to have enough mark up to make it worth their money. Sometimes it is better to just save the effort and let them deal with the resale, but in the case of this sort of equipment, the difference is often in the thousands of dollars, which for me at least, is enough to make me prefer to sell direct. I have gotten burned before though. I kept my S2 while I converted to the 006, as I wanted to make sure it was working properly before I sold it, and the by the time I got ready to sell it its value had gone from around 7000 dollars to 4000 or less. I still have it, and it is now worth what, 2500 dollars? Unfortunately I recall reading about a business concept where a sharp loss tends to make people not want to sell, when in reality in certain cases it is better to cut your losses as soon as possible, as in all likelihood if you hang onto it, it will continue to lose more and more value. Better to sell at 4000 and get 4000 dollars than to not sell and get 0 dollars. 

I am not sure how to relate this perfectly to the current discussion, only than to say that based on past experience, once the S3 comes out, the 007 is likely to plunge quite a bit in value, and the S2 and S006 will also lose more, though they are surely closer to the bottom of their value...at least for the time being. It is of course up to the buyer, but people interested in the 007 and not the S3 would probably do well to wait a few months, and they will likely save quite a bit...and if there is some sort of trade in offer, there is no reason you could not buy an 007 on the used market then and use that to trade in, if the values are favorable enough. 

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Posted (edited)

I did upgrade from an S2 to an S007 3 years ago and didn't regret it.

For me the S2 was not matching the way I wanted to use it. It surely is a great system for studio work and I understand an S007 can be considered as a side upgrade in this context. But once outside of the controlled studio environment my S2 was mostly, well a frustrating experience:

I did not buy into the S system to go photograph landscapes or cities at 2pm in bright sunlight (I have a Nikon for that 🙂). So chasing good light outside also often means not having much light to start with.

When handholding the camera with an S120mm getting sharp images was a challenge. It means using at least 1/250s. It also means using higher iso with picture/DR degradation, a monopod was mandatory with the 120.

It gets even worst when you add the AF inconsistency of the S2:  light front or back focus depending on the lens + focussed distance making the use of f2,5 to f4 apertures a lottery game.

Closing down the aperture helped for critical focus but made the iso/DR issue more problematic.

The S007 is a game changer in those conditions. Iso and DR are great at 1600 and very good at 3200. AF was more accurate (but not perfect) but checking the sharpness of the picture taken is a lot more easier on its LCD screen.

On tripod I also find the S007 greatly superior to the S2: using the live view with a hoodman loupe is a guaranteed critical sharpness control. The S2 on tripod gives you no option to validate your focussed distance. It's okay with longer lens but is problematic with wide angle lenses when checking perfect sharpness of small/long distance details is not possible in the OVF nor later on the LCD.

I had both camera during a few weeks and found the S007 color more accurate but also less pleasing in some circumstances so I did a few shots with both and adapted the color profile of the S007 to taste in Lightroom, problem solved.

If you like to shoot street photography and landscape casually but also with full control when the scenery is worse it the S007 is a lot more than just a side upgrade of the S2.

 

 

Edited by SaW

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6 hours ago, SaW said:

I did upgrade from an S2 to an S007 3 years ago and didn't regret it.

For me the S2 was not matching the way I wanted to use it. It surely is a great system for studio work and I understand an S007 can be considered as a side upgrade in this context. But once outside of the controlled studio environment my S2 was mostly, well a frustrating experience:

I did not buy into the S system to go photograph landscapes or cities at 2pm in bright sunlight (I have a Nikon for that 🙂). So chasing good light outside also often means not having much light to start with.

When handholding the camera with an S120mm getting sharp images was a challenge. It means using at least 1/250s. It also means using higher iso with picture/DR degradation, a monopod was mandatory with the 120.

It gets even worst when you add the AF inconsistency of the S2:  light front or back focus depending on the lens + focussed distance making the use of f2,5 to f4 apertures a lottery game.

Closing down the aperture helped for critical focus but made the iso/DR issue more problematic.

The S007 is a game changer in those conditions. Iso and DR are great at 1600 and very good at 3200. AF was more accurate (but not perfect) but checking the sharpness of the picture taken is a lot more easier on its LCD screen.

On tripod I also find the S007 greatly superior to the S2: using the live view with a hoodman loupe is a guaranteed critical sharpness control. The S2 on tripod gives you no option to validate your focussed distance. It's okay with longer lens but is problematic with wide angle lenses when checking perfect sharpness of small/long distance details is not possible in the OVF nor later on the LCD.

I had both camera during a few weeks and found the S007 color more accurate but also less pleasing in some circumstances so I did a few shots with both and adapted the color profile of the S007 to taste in Lightroom, problem solved.

If you like to shoot street photography and landscape casually but also with full control when the scenery is worse it the S007 is a lot more than just a side upgrade of the S2.

 

 

This is a great example why you have to evaluate the cameras based on your usage patterns. The issues you mention were not issues for me, and the advantages you see are not compelling enough for me, but what you say makes absolute sense.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Unfortunately I recall reading about a business concept where a sharp loss tends to make people not want to sell, when in reality in certain cases it is better to cut your losses as soon as possible, as in all likelihood if you hang onto it, it will continue to lose more and more value. Better to sell at 4000 and get 4000 dollars than to not sell and get 0 dollars. 

This is of course true as the price of the S007 will not go up...it is not like bank stocks in 2008. However, the camera still takes great pictures, can be used to make money for someone who uses it professionally, and can eventually serve as a backup to the S3. At some point, I no longer care if it loses half its current value, because the current value is no longer that much, in absolute terms, as long as the utility is there. And anyway, I am not so disappointed about the loss of value of the S007, as this could be expected. I am disappointed, though (and that is a polite way of expressing my feelings) about the loss of value of the lenses, because of (a) the poorly handled AF motor fiasco, and (b) the whole system now looking like another dead end, given where the market for MFD, and Leica's own R&D focus, have moved in the meantime. The lenses are practically unsaleable now - my dealer doesn't even want to quote me a price on them and I couldn't sell my MINT condition Summicron-S on eBay for an entire month, at about 60% of new price. One of the options I am considering now: instead of buying the S3 at the expected elevated price, I might buy the upcoming SL2, plus the S-L adapter, to get more usage out of my S lenses. And keep the S007 for use with the CS lenses, for whenever I shoot with strobes outside. 

Edited by albireo_double

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1 hour ago, albireo_double said:

This is of course true as the price of the S007 will not go up...it is not like bank stocks in 2008. However, the camera still takes great pictures, can be used to make money for someone who uses it professionally, and can eventually serve as a backup to the S3. At some point, I no longer care if it loses half its current value, because the current value is no longer that much, in absolute terms, as long as the utility is there. And anyway, I am not so disappointed about the loss of value of the S007, as this could be expected. I am disappointed, though (and that is a polite way of expressing my feelings) about the loss of value of the lenses, because of (a) the poorly handled AF motor fiasco, and (b) the whole system now looking like another dead end, given where the market for MFD, and Leica's own R&D focus, have moved in the meantime. The lenses are practically unsaleable now - my dealer doesn't even want to quote me a price on them and I couldn't sell my MINT condition Summicron-S on eBay for an entire month, at about 60% of new price. One of the options I am considering now: instead of buying the S3 at the expected elevated price, I might buy the upcoming SL2, plus the S-L adapter, to get more usage out of my S lenses. And keep the S007 for use with the CS lenses, for whenever I shoot with strobes outside. 

Same thinking here. I no longer worry about it’s selling price. All the merit that I choose S system are still there. They are as functional as they were a few years ago. 

Same as you, I am quite unhappy to see the way Leica handled Af motor and sensor corrosion. I think this not only directly impact the value of the system but also put my loyalty on test. 

I am also unsatisfied with technology progress with S such as AF, sensor and LCD resolution or other feature such as flip LCD etc.  however, I have to agree those are mostly minor stuff for the way I use this system. 

Leica S’s situation is kind of bad for current owner but it is quite good for anyone who can appreciate its merits. It is still most enjoyable system to use.

Think about it, a 50 years old 75mm Germany summilux can ask for more than 4K which is more than people willing to pay for 100mmS summicron, however, the performance, color and overall output are just not at the same level. 

The same for 180S, which has such a wonderful performance that beat APO 180R, cover bigger format but sell less. 

Another good example is you might be able to get a S2 plus 70mm Summarit for less than 4K, and I can put this combo to challenge any system for the price in the world for portrait usage.

I look forward to see what S3 bring us and I hope S1R will be able to take S glasses, if not SL2 might be a good options. 

Compare S glass to other modern offers, I like the fact even they are sharp but never on your face types. The portrait out of any S glass not only have good sharpness but also beautiful focus transition and roll off, this behavior was missed for most FF glasses include OTUS and latest summicron SL. I guess that is why S glasses were ported to thalia and quite popular in large format video market. 

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6 hours ago, ZHNL said:

Compare S glass to other modern offers, I like the fact even they are sharp but never on your face types. The portrait out of any S glass not only have good sharpness but also beautiful focus transition and roll off, this behavior was missed for most FF glasses include OTUS and latest summicron SL. I guess that is why S glasses were ported to thalia and quite popular in large format video market. 

Yes, for portrait use, the S lenses are superb. I also love RZ67 lenses on skin, when shot with a P1 CCD digiback. Never any harshness with these two systems. But I have to admit that I love the latest Summicron 70 SL, too.

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What makes me thinking about a lot is that the S007 has "just" 37MP. And we speak of a Medium Format System. The newest Full Format system match the 50MP border i.e. the new Q2. The new S3 will have 64 MP maybe. So is the S007 with "only" 37MP still good even if we some FF system have more than 50MP.

I know this is a basic discussion in the last years. Megapixel Resolution is not everything. The MF sensor has a bigger pixel pitch. But is it still enough for today?

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for me the 36MP are enough. what I wish for is a little bit more advanced AF. other than that I find the S excellent camera.

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I guess from what I've seen from testing it for one week, the 007 sensor is still very good and relevant these days. 'Even' compared to the much glorified modern Sony sensors.

For me it's all a matter of how big do I want (to be able to) print. I would like to go to one meter wide and for that 37,5 MP is not really enough, IMHO

(I know, I know, with good shooting technique, the right light, the right atmospheric circumstances, etc, it could be done, but at 240 dpi the new 64MP S3 gets us ~ 10 more inches on the long side than the S2/006/007)

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I think there are two ways to think about it. Historically, 37.5mp is enough for medium format. Especially with a larger sensor, it compares very well to 645 and even 6x7 (where the S is finer grained or grainless and its detail is sharper, though it may not have quite as much detail in certain circumstances, and film still enlarges more gracefully in the extreme sizes, based on the difference in rendering). With respect to general use as well, 37.5mp is enough for most users. For example a lot of fashion or portrait photographers might appreciate the look of lenses, color and tonality more than they might in a 35mm camera, while not really worrying much about resolution. They do not often have to print much larger than a magazine spread, or for commercial displays which often have quite a long viewing distance. But when it comes to art photography, landscape work and areas of commercial work that expect larger enlargements, then 37.5 can certainly be increased. 64mp is very welcome in that sense, and indeed, with all else being equal, more resolution tracks with more quality...it means less moire, better tonality, better microcontrast, finer grain, more ability to crop and better color fidelity. All else being equal is the operative phrase here.

Of course, the 007, 006 and S2 are great cameras and will continue to be once the S3 is released. It is a bit foolhardy, however, to ignore the fact that there are many less expensive cameras that can outresolve them, outdo them in high ISO performance and so on. Technology keeps moving on and it does not tend to spare Leica and their 4-7 year MF sensor cycle. 

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Well said Stuart, spoken like a true master-printer 🙂

The thing is, one can't help but wonder where the S system would be today if the 007 had the 64 MP sensor - or at least more MP's - at the time it came to market. I'm still on the fence though, it's a big step up from my S2-P and I think the 37.5 MP 007-sensor is really very good.

I wish Leica would announce the price for the S3 already.

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2 hours ago, Jan1985 said:

I know this is a basic discussion in the last years. Megapixel Resolution is not everything. The MF sensor has a bigger pixel pitch. But is it still enough for today?

It's not just the last few years. When the Canon 5D Mark II came out (with an incredible 21 megapixels), there was a lot of discussion about "is this the end of medium format?"

10 years later, medium format is more relevant and popular than ever.

There is no free lunch in photography. You can achieve near-medium-format levels of resolution with a smaller imager (just like you could with Agfapan 25 and Kodachrome 25 in the film days), but getting there requires a huge amount of technical expertise and rigor. The people who are willing to put-in that much work quickly realize that they can achieve even more with medium format. Some even progress to large format.

Medium format's advantage is partly because lenses are less stressed at equivalent resolutions. If you are familiar with MTF diagrams, you know that contrast is shown at different frequencies (for instance 10-20-40 l/mm). Fine detail that may be in the 40 l/mm range in 35mm format will be resolved in the 20 l/mm range in medium format. That means higher contrast, less diffraction, fewer optical aberrations, less "false detail," less local sharpening required in post-processing.

It all adds-up to a more "natural looking" image. One comparison that may resonate, so to speak, is the difference between the sound of a full orchestra and the sound of a synthesizer that's been programed to sound like a full orchestra. It's really not the same thing, even though the second can, in theory, be made to sound like the first.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Stuart Richardson:

I think there are two ways to think about it. Historically, 37.5mp is enough for medium format. Especially with a larger sensor, it compares very well to 645 and even 6x7 (where the S is finer grained or grainless and its detail is sharper, though it may not have quite as much detail in certain circumstances, and film still enlarges more gracefully in the extreme sizes, based on the difference in rendering). With respect to general use as well, 37.5mp is enough for most users. For example a lot of fashion or portrait photographers might appreciate the look of lenses, color and tonality more than they might in a 35mm camera, while not really worrying much about resolution. They do not often have to print much larger than a magazine spread, or for commercial displays which often have quite a long viewing distance. But when it comes to art photography, landscape work and areas of commercial work that expect larger enlargements, then 37.5 can certainly be increased. 64mp is very welcome in that sense, and indeed, with all else being equal, more resolution tracks with more quality...it means less moire, better tonality, better microcontrast, finer grain, more ability to crop and better color fidelity. All else being equal is the operative phrase here.

Of course, the 007, 006 and S2 are great cameras and will continue to be once the S3 is released. It is a bit foolhardy, however, to ignore the fact that there are many less expensive cameras that can outresolve them, outdo them in high ISO performance and so on. Technology keeps moving on and it does not tend to spare Leica and their 4-7 year MF sensor cycle. 

Yes that is what I noticed. Recently I made a print of a Portrait in Black & White in size 1meter high and 75cm width. The quality is great and you definitely see these transitions from sharp to unsharp which is often mentioned as one attribute of medium format look.

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