SL Summicrons vs Other Summiluxes

[Fedro]

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I would have expected the 90 to be clearly more compressed, but they seem remarkably similar to me

[scott kirkpatrick]

I think they both handle medium scale detail very smoothly, but the area where Stuart, for example. would probably like greater smoothness is when the background has fine texture.  Bare fine branches are the worst case (ni-sei), but foliage in my shots still generates sharp random-looking contours and sharp-edged blobs of light if the leaves catch the light.  My R SX 80 wouldn't do that, but it also smooths out fine detail at almost all distances.  Great for teen-age complexions as well.  Peter Karbe's claim for this line of lenses is that they separate the objects at different distances nicely because there is a contrast fall-off from the image plane in sharpest focus as well as the usual increase in circle of confusion.

Edited March 17, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

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[Chaemono]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

I think they both handle medium scale detail very smoothly, but the area where Stuart, for example. would probably like greater smoothness is when the background has fine texture.  Bare fine branches are the worst case, but foliage in my shots still generates sharp random-looking contours (ni-sei) and sharp-edged blobs of light if the leaves catch the light.

+1, but with the 75 Summicron-SL there is a trade off between performance at the point of focus and what you mention above. For those situations, unfortunately, it’s better to use the 90 Summicron-SL or the 75 Noctilux, and they are both modern, 2018 Leica lenses. Leica is not changing the emphasis to the point of focus from the OOF areas in general, they just want users to buy more lenses. 🤣

[Chaemono]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

Bare fine branches are the worst case (ni-sei), but foliage in my shots still generates sharp random-looking contours and sharp-edged blobs of light if the leaves catch the light.

No light to test this but I think the edges of the leaves are better defined with the 90 Summicron-SL in the OOF areas in these. Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-fJ9mgR/i-BJ9HMR9

 

75 Summicron-SL

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90 Summicron-SL

[scott kirkpatrick]

Here are some more examples of how the 75 SL Suummicron handles the separation between close objects:

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S1040859 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

S1040860 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

S1040861 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

The university botanical garden is a few blocks from our home.  at this time of year, the phrase "shooting fish in a barrel" comes to mind.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Middle distances, no bokeh

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S1000100 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

Edited April 7, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

[wellfleet]

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Does anyone now have both 35 SL Summicron and 35 M Summilux, and would care to comment on what Peter Karbe has said, " We've tightened and raised the curve, so that f/2 will offer a look that is similar to f/1.4."

Edited April 21, 2019 by wellfleet

[Chaemono]

He means exactly that, they‘ve tightened and raised the curve, so that f/2 will offer a look that is similar to f/1.4 in terns of contrast fall-off, not in terms of background blur. See here for 75 Summicron-SL vs. 75 Summicron-M https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-nW5Qwt/ where they‘ve also tightened and raised the curve. 

[wellfleet]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

He means exactly that, they‘ve tightened and raised the curve, so that f/2 will offer a look that is similar to f/1.4 in terns of contrast fall-off, not in terms of background blur. See here for 75 Summicron-SL vs. 75 Summicron-M https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-nW5Qwt/ where they‘ve also tightened and raised the curve. 

 I know what he means. I'd like to see some examples with the 35s.

[Chaemono]

Virtually same perceived background blur for a given distance between camera and subject except that the subject will pop more because they’ve tightened and raised the curve. 😁 

[Chaemono]

I'm highjacking this thread for 75 Summicron-SL vs. 75 Noctilux-M comparisons. Scott started it as an image thread anyway and Jaap doesn't like it when we flood discussion threads like "Should I wait for the SL 2" with images. He likes to keep the forum organized. 😀

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-z6hwzJ/

75 Summicron-SL on S1

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75 Noctilux on M10

 

75 Summicron-SL on S1

 

75 Noctilux on M10

[Chaemono]

And these two to show that the 75 Summicron-SL can isolate the subject nicely even with less background blur wide open than the 75 Noctilux. The reason is, as Jono said in another tread, that the rapid loss of contrast when one moves away from the point of perfect focus creates the illusion of a smaller depth of field.

Less compressed JPEGs here :https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-z6hwzJ/

 

S1 + 75 Summicron-SL @f/2

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M10 + 75 Noctilux @f1/1.25

[Mr.Q]

Hmm, I'm not seeing the perceived smaller DOF in your samples. The photo taken with the Noctilux definitely has more "pop" against the background, as it should. 

I think the subject needs to be closer to the background to better assess the phenomena.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Mr.Q:

Hmm, I'm not seeing the perceived smaller DOF in your samples. The photo taken with the Noctilux definitely has more "pop" against the background, as it should. 

I think the subject needs to be closer to the background to better assess the phenomena.

It's not always obvious but clearly there in the two above. Look at the crops below.  Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-z6hwzJ/

S1 + 75 Summicron-SL @f/2 cropped

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M10 + 75 Noctilux @f1/1.25 cropped

[m9photo]

How are you comparing if both lenses are not set at same opening at F2? on my naked eyes the Nocti has better bokeh. You should probably set the Nocti on F2 as well and if you an use the M/L adapter on your S1.

[Mr.Q]

14 minutes ago, m9photo said:

How are you comparing if both lenses are not set at same opening at F2? on my naked eyes the Nocti has better bokeh. You should probably set the Nocti on F2 as well and if you an use the M/L adapter on your S1.

He's trying to compare the "quick contrast fall-off" of the Summicron against the Noctilux, not the bokeh.

I think, however, that the plane of focus needs to be closer to the plane behind it to actually determine how "quick" the transition really is.

[Chaemono]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Mr.Q:

He's trying to compare the "quick contrast fall-off" of the Summicron against the Noctilux, not the bokeh.

Exactly.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Mr.Q:

I think, however, that the plane of focus needs to be closer to the plane behind it to actually determine how "quick" the transition really is.

Possibly. Here are two older shots with the 75 Noctilux at f/2 now. Take the sharpness with a grain of salt. They are both handheld. The roll off is initially sudden then gradual with the 75 Summcron-SL, while contrast fades away smoothly behind the point of focus with the Noctilux.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-53KVDc/

 

SL + 75 Summicron-SL @f/2

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M10 + 75 Noctilux @f/2

[m9photo]

Now we're talking, at F2 they have about the same contrast, sometimes when you have a lens wide open it affect the overall look (contrast, etc) as light would play a bit more.

 

[Chaemono]

Look at the motorbikes in the link and the roll off behind the point of focus. 

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[scott kirkpatrick]

Waking up a sleeping dog...

Nervous bokeh is always going to result with lights or other nervous objects just beyond the plane of focus, but the real challenge is the ability of highly controlled APO Summicrons to "separate the plane of focus just as well as traditional f/1.4 lenses."  I.e Karbe vs. Mandler (or Zeiss, or...) .  So the wide open rendering of the classic Summilux 80 (R) or 75 (M)  should be compared with that of the new SC APO 75 Summicron, also wide open.  Here's a good test target, shot with both lenses.I focused on the center of the edge of the partially completed puzzle.

 

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P1022666 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

R1020038 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

Click through to see each of them rendered at 12 MPx . The old reliable Mandler still blurs the image out in the shortest distance, but the separation that the newer lens affords to the area in sharpest focus comes from the brighter rendering as well as discrimination in sharpness.  Anyway this is as close a comparison as I could think of.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick