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Guest Olof

New lens constructing engineer at Leica...

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...I agree that in terms of FOV and DOF they are equivalent. In terms of exposure they are not, I think. If you are in the same lighting conditions and use the same ISO, then a 50/2 (FF) should still require a faster (=different) shutter speed than the 66.7/2.7 (M8). Or in other words, a Cron is a Cron, no matter if on FF or M8.

Yes of course. Crop factors don't change apertures in any way.

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By the way, for the folks in happy snap / amateur land, film is dead. But for pros like me, not even close.

 

That's 99% of film sales. Even if film enjoys a revival among pros and art school students the mass market that supported research and development at behemoths like Kodak and Fuji is evaporating. Film will live on but research in new and better emulsions will not. Eventually a few legacy emulsions will live on, produced in countries where environmental regs are more lax. I'd love to be able to get medium format Kodachrome (remember that), to bad the process is so damn toxic.

 

2. As a working pro that likes the image quality of the full image circle of the lenses I bought, I have zero, no, nada interest in the lens cropping M8.

 

Having said this, I really hope they make a full frame M9, I have a pair of 5D's and the image quality that is possible with a larger sensor is very real and quite advantageous.

 

But what do I know, I am just a pro who has just gained sponsorship from Leica USA for a long term project...:-)

 

Plenty of pros including some of the biggest names in photojournalism, fashion and product photography have used (and many are still using) cropped format sensors in 35mm, medium format and large format. But what do they know.

 

Being a pro photographer is not the same as being the pope, your experience and your opinion may work and be valid for you, but that doesn't automatically make it a universal truth. Others, both amateur and pro may get excellent results by other methods then yours.

 

I don't see the problems you see with the M8's cropped sensor. In practice I prefer the results to what I was getting from my full frame Canon 1Ds. My clients were perfectly happy with the results from the 1Ds (which is why I had not yet 'upgraded' to a MKII or a medium format back), I didn't purchase the M8 because it had superior IQ to any pro DSLR or for the 'magic' of Leica lenses, it was for the ergonomics of the RF M platform. It is an excellent digital RF camera, the first digital RF that meets my minimum requirements for image quality and resolution.

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As long as FF DRFs are not feasable, the only valid reason why digital M users should be deprieved of small fast wides is they would be too few to buy them IMHO. Any idea about this?

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As long as FF DRFs are not feasable, the only valid reason why digital M users should be deprieved of small fast wides is they would be too few to buy them IMHO. Any idea about this?

 

Optical constraints dictate that a fast wide would be so large that the viewfinder would be blocked.

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12-15mm elmarit/elmar (f2.8 or f4) NICE

28 f 1.4 summilux TOO BIG, TOO HEAVY

35 f 1 noctilux..... TOO BIG, TOO HEAVY

75 f2.8 elmarit NICE

 

 

according to my little engineering calculation,

the 28 f1.4 should be as big as the 24 elmarit (no longer than that, at least a little larger, maybe something like an E52 diameter all lens long). Then again I think a virtual 35f1 noctilux shouldn't be bigger than a 50 Nocti at this time.(obviously, considering a non-ASPH 35 f1 lens).

Of course I am not an engineer, so there must be something I'm missing which is the most important factor.....

Regards

Maurizio

 

MAURIZIO BEUCCI.com - Official web site

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As long as FF DRFs are not feasable, the only valid reason why digital M users should be deprieved of small fast wides is they would be too few to buy them IMHO. Any idea about this?

 

After years of development and intense competition only Canon has managed to successfully produce a full frame DSLR thus far. A full frame M considering the much shorter register between lens and sensor compared to any SLR is a much more difficult technical challenge and not likely in the foreseeable future. A full frame R however is a real possibility and if not with the R10 then it will certainly happen long before you see a full frame M.

 

That being the case I don't see any reason why Leica shouldn't produce a digital only 28/1.4 and 21/2. If at some future date, say 5 years from now, new technology comes along that makes a 24x36 M possible the cropped sensor format could continue as the entry level model as it does for Canon. Judging from the sales numbers Leica is now a digital company, why ignore the needs of the majority of purchasing customers? Collectors and film users are better served by the used market. If I was looking for a film body there is no way I'd pay Leica's new prices which does nothing for Leica's future bottom line.

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Not in D size Jaap.

 

The problem with D size (digital only) lenses is the vignetting of the wide angle models. The light would strike the sensor at a greater angle then it now does with standard 35mm format lenses.

I doen't think Leica is even considering D size lens design.

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Coming back to the original topic of the thread, let's hope that poor lens construction engineer we are all putting high hopes on knows his stuff.

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Not in D size Jaap.

 

 

That is true. They could even incorporate an IRcut filter in the only correct spot, as near to the diaphragm as possible. But I imagine Leica's marketing department can only too clearly hear the screams of indignation from the analog crowd.....

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The problem with D size (digital only) lenses is the vignetting of the wide angle models. The light would strike the sensor at a greater angle then it now does with standard 35mm format lenses.

I doen't think Leica is even considering D size lens design.

 

I assume if they were to do it they would use a digital friendly retro-focus design so there would be less vignetting and cyan drift them with RF wide angles. The needs of digital and film are different and a lens can't be optimized for both formats equally.

 

The compromises and priorities you choose will shift depending on the medium you are designing for. If you are trying to squeeze out that last ten tenths of performance in a very high cost optic you need to optimize for the type of sensor/film that will be used.

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Being a pro photographer is not the same as being the pope, your experience and your opinion may work and be valid for you, but that doesn't automatically make it a universal truth. Others, both amateur and pro may get excellent results by other methods then yours.

 

I don't see the problems you see with the M8's cropped sensor.

 

Well, I never gave any indication at all that what's best for me is best for everyone, I think this is one of the biggest problems of how cropped sensor users get defensive when another viewpoint comes in.

 

Most people don't see the problems I am seeing with cropped sensors, because they are not shooting my photos. I have a style I like to use on certain advertising accounts that employes super shallow DOF that includes the often unique attribute of the outer or peripheral bokeh that ones finds in using F2.0 or faster.

 

And as far as film goes, even if 90% of my favorite color emulsions are around only another 5 years, well that is a heck of a lot of photos my friend. Black and white, well I am 100% invested and have *tons* of stock of films that will last pretty much indefinitely frozen. I am and will be set for the rest of my life in terms of black and white.

 

We are all different, I only gave my opinion to help get rid of the possible global thought that everyone has gone 100% digital and everyone loves DX.

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After years of development and intense competition only Canon has managed to successfully produce a full frame DSLR thus far.

 

...and Kodak, as ill-fated might have been, with the DCS 14n, then DCS SRL/n.

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There was the Contax one too, but I think a lot hinges around the meaning of the word 'successfull'. Judged by success in the market place both the Kodak and the Contax were flops.

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Most people don't see the problems I am seeing with cropped sensors, because they are not shooting my photos. I have a style I like to use on certain advertising accounts that employes super shallow DOF that includes the often unique attribute of the outer or peripheral bokeh that ones finds in using F2.0 or faster.

 

 

We are all different, I only gave my opinion to help get rid of the possible global thought that everyone has gone 100% digital and everyone loves DX.

 

I'm sure your choices works great for you. I don't think anyone needs to 'defend' their equipment choices. I'm always interested in what others use and the why's of how they do what they do even if their work and methods are very different from my own.

 

I find for myself that a 50 on the M8 acts just like a 65 on film. I could see how it could be a problem if you needed 1.4 at 35 or f2 at 28 as those are not options with the cropped sensor. The bokeh I'm getting in this snapshot with the 50/1.4 preASPH at f2 or 2.8 works just fine for me.

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I agree wih Carsten; using a 50/2 on the M8 is equivalent to using 67/2.7 lens full frame from the point of view of angle of view and depth of field.

 

However, the brightness of the image projected by the lens onto the sensor does not change when you move from FF to M8, so no exposure compensation is required. It's still a 50/2.

 

The LFI article is well worth reading, though don't expect to take it all in at once if you've been at the Rioja.

 

Thanks, Mark, for the positive recommendation of the LFI article.

 

The point certainly isn't intuitive, and the article is quite provocative. It isn't an easy read, but it's fairly comprehensive.

 

The LuLa article reaches the same point in passing. Unless you've already been made aware of the concept, you'll probably read right through it without noticing.

 

 

Yes of course. Crop factors don't change apertures in any way.

You are correct, crop factors don't change apertures. But they do change _effective_ apertures.

 

Remember, we already had this conversation, LCT, when the LFI article came out. Now the point has been repeated on LuLa.

 

BTW, you didn't respond to my question about variations in French question marks in Customer Forum, though your response to the first post was quite helpful.

 

--HC

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Cool, I knew it! I won't be getting them, because I am already set up, but it pleases me very much to see this. Higher sales numbers can only help all of us, as it helps Leica.

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