Leica S007 AFc behavior

[ZHNL]

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For those who have S007, how is you body behave during AFc. It seems even for a well defined AF target, if you put body in AFc either by back button focus in manual mode or half press shutter, it keep focusing. For other system, (Sony or Nikon) usually, if the target is well defined, AFc behave very similar to AFs in a case like that, you don't hear or see AF keep changing and working. It seems in a weird feedback loop can never reach steady state. If you shoot under this condition, for sure you will have many miss focused images.  

I don't remember I see this with S006, at least nowhere this bad. it could be just because S006 is much slower. General speaking, I feel S007's AF is slightly less usable compare to S2/S006 because of this. I noticed this behavior long time ago with a S007 loaner and mentioned here in forum, that was the reason I decide not to upgrade.   

For AFs, I don't see much difference between S007 or S2/S006, but it is definitely no more accurate.  

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[hoppyman]

I almost never use AFc but I checked now with my Typ 007 for you.

In Manual focus mode with back button set to AFc, that will operate continuously as you expect for as long as the button is pressed. When you release the button the focus remains set at the last value when you then press the shutter release.  The shutter release has no focus function in manual focus, only option to lock AE or not.

If you are in AFc. then the focus will continuously change for as long as the shutter release is half pressed. On the occasions that I tried that with a (loan) Typ 006 and my Typ 007, I did not find useful for my style of photography due to the single central AF point.

Edited February 25, 2019 by hoppyman

[ZHNL]

9 minutes ago, hoppyman said:

I almost never use AFc but I checked now with my Typ 007 for you.

In Manual focus mode with back button set to AFc, that will operate continuously as you expect for as long as the button is pressed. When you release the button the focus remains set at the last value when you then press the shutter release.  The shutter release has no focus function in manual focus, only option to lock AE or not.

If you are in AFc. then the focus will continuously change for as long as the shutter release is half pressed. On the occasions that I tried that with a (loan) Typ 006 and my Typ 007, I did not find useful for my style of photography due to the single central AF point.

Thank you very much for your time. I pretty much only use AFs as well for S for obvious reason you listed. I ask only because I saw Milan_S mentioned in other thread that he used AFc with 100cron than 120APO for more consistent focus.  I personally don't find to be the case.  

The problem here is I did not change the distance during AFC, but lens just continue focusing back and forth. This for sure a recipe  for a lot miss focused images at least for me.  The problem seems even worse with less defined target or with some lenses such as 120APO, 100cron.

for all other modern systems I used either Nikon or Sony in AFC, if subject distance didn't change, it will not keep focusing or the focusing movement is so small that I won't notice it. 

 

[hoppyman]

I am not sure if I understand you correctly then, As I posted AFc via back button in Manual focus mode or AFc  by shutter release when not in Manual focus mode  both work as expected.
I first found this out when I was loaned a Typ 006 a few years back at very short notice and used it for half of a location based workshop . I had not read the instructions. 

[ZHNL]

4 minutes ago, hoppyman said:

I am not sure if I understand you correctly then, As I posted AFc via back button in Manual focus mode or AFc  by shutter release when not in Manual focus mode  both work as expected.
I first found this out when I was loaned a Typ 006 a few years back at very short notice and used it for half of a location based workshop . I had not read the instructions. 

Sorry about confusion. My bad for sure.  

My point was as long as we are in AFC, no matter you are in AF mode with half press the shutter or in Manual focus mode with back button focus, the AF is just keep focusing back and forth hard and seems never settle down. This means it is almost unusable in such a case.

It behaves worse with shorter distance (undestanble), less defined target (sure) or worse with certain lens such as 120APO or 100Cron.  

Hope I am more clear this time. 

[hoppyman]

OK I understand what you meant better. So however you start AFc it doesn't seem find find lock for you. 
In my limited trial for you with static objects I would get lock and then release the back button to recompose. So that is really the same as when I use AFs.
I don't think AFc is a very useful function for my photography with only a single central AF point.  I don't know if the performance is worse with the Typ 007 in comparison to the earlier models. In my loan of the Typ 006  (a few hundred frames) it was frustrating when I didn't understand about Manual Focus mode.

For comparison, I set up my SL the same way. As you can set the field size and most importantly choose where that AF point or field is in the view, it seems much more functional and very responsive when operating via shutter release or back button in Manual focus mode. Near instant and silent with the 24-90. Not something I use in any case

[ZHNL]

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36 minutes ago, hoppyman said:

OK I understand what you meant better. So however you start AFc it doesn't seem find find lock for you. 
In my limited trial for you with static objects I would get lock and then release the back button to recompose. So that is really the same as when I use AFs.
I don't think AFc is a very useful function for my photography with only a single central AF point.  I don't know if the performance is worse with the Typ 007 in comparison to the earlier models. In my loan of the Typ 006  (a few hundred frames) it was frustrating when I didn't understand about Manual Focus mode.

For comparison, I set up my SL the same way. As you can set the field size and most importantly choose where that AF point or field is in the view, it seems much more functional and very responsive when operating via shutter release or back button in Manual focus mode. Near instant and silent with the 24-90. Not something I use in any case

Thanks again for the reply. Please let me further clarify a few thing. 

About S2/S006 vs S007 AFc behavior, it is not that S2/S006 is superior. They have about the same capability for AF accuracy. However, S2/S006 seems much slower to response in AFC mode, so you don;t feel as bad as S007 that was trying hard to focus back and forth.  In the end, if you trip the shutter during this period, most of the images will be out of focus. 

And as mentioned, I agree with you, for S, I pretty much use back button AFs all the time if I use AF. more than 80% I use manual focus only. Reason as mentioned, S's AFC is simply unreliable.  I did careful test for static target, AFs gave noticeable better accuracy than AFc under all the cases even both can't be compare to any 10 years old Canon or Nikon PDAF, not to mention latest MILC's CDAF system. 

Morden days, you could leave your camera at AFC all the time and hold AF-ON (back button AF) all the time during shooting, a good system even compensate your minor body movement and to some extent can even be used for MACRO shot. I don't expect  Leica S has the same capability obviously. However, I didn't expect it is totally unusable at any distance as well. 

Now, about single AF point. Actually it is not that bad at all for single point AF, for shooting dynamically, manual select AF point usually was not a good option during shooting, too slow and distractive. Single point is actually fine and more straightforward.

Workable AFC and single point can be very powerful in real world. For example, as long as any body part is at the same distance of your subject face or eyes, you can simple focus on that without focus and recompose.

For subject a few meter away from you, if you shoot 70mm at f2.5, you can simply focus on subject's any body part and for sure subject face will be within DOF at that distance. It can be extreme useful if you have a workable AFC for moving subject. However, it is not the case with S, though I don't know about other MF system. 

 

 

[Photon42]

I do use AF-C all the time with the S2. Normally no issues with perma-hunting, not locking whatsoever. Just tried it on a resonablly static and contrasty target with the 120.

[ZHNL]

4 hours ago, Photon42 said:

I do use AF-C all the time with the S2. Normally no issues with perma-hunting, not locking whatsoever. Just tried it on a resonablly static and contrasty target with the 120.

Were you saying with S2,  your 120 can lock focus without hunting even you push AF-ON button all the time in AFC? 

Maybe my memory was wrong. It is indeed an issue for S007 only? I just test this again with a bunch of lenses include 70, 120, 100... 

Even on tripod with fixed target, the lenses just keep trying to acquire focus and never settled.  I don't have S2/S006 on hand to test this behavior though.  

BTW, how is your AFC results with 120 for tracking? do you exam them 100%? I almost feel I have a dude S007 if I haven't had handled like 5 S bodies in which 2 of them are S007 

 

[Photon42]

Yes, I did say this - and I mean it, too 😬 Normal contrast, indoor lighting, not too bright, not too dark. I have not tried tracking. Honestly, I think my S2 is extremely precise in focussing. Not the fastest, of course. I did a shooting a couple of months back - not a single misfocus attributable to the camera.

[albertknappmd]

I no longer bother with AFc...

Just use AFs..

Albert 😏

[Photon42]

AF-S in manual mode with AF-ON here. In my world it only has advantages.

[ZHNL]

9 minutes ago, Photon42 said:

AF-S in manual mode with AF-ON here. In my world it only has advantages.

You meant AFc here for your setting, right? 

I think most S user will use the camera in manual with back button focus. 

[ZHNL]

20 minutes ago, albertknappmd said:

I no longer bother with AFc...

Just use AFs..

Albert 😏

Hi, Albert,

Which S body you are using, S007 or S006? Did you notice AFc never settled with S007? If it is only a problem of my body, I will send it in. 

Thanks,

Michael

 

 

[Photon42]

5 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

You meant AFc here for your setting, right? 

I think most S user will use the camera in manual with back button focus. 

yes

[ZHNL]

1 minute ago, Photon42 said:

yes

Maybe S2's AFc indeed behave differently. It has been so long now for me.

However, I do remember my S2 have focus problem as well especially for long distance and infinity shots. and I sent in my whole setup to Leica and later on was determined all in spec by Leica. Since then, I always use barrel mark to do infinity shot and double check every images if I used AF in field trip. 

[albertknappmd]

1 hour ago, ZHNL said:

Hi, Albert,

Which S body you are using, S007 or S006? Did you notice AFc never settled with S007? If it is only a problem of my body, I will send it in. 

Thanks,

Michael

 

 

The 007 would eventually lock onto something but this was always annoying and frustrating when dealing with a moving person or animal as the AF precluded you from taking the shot..

I stopped using it ages ago. 

I use AFs..

Again, I realize that the focus is not ideal in low light and non-contrasty situations so manual focussing is frequently required..

Albert 😉

[ZHNL]

16 minutes ago, albertknappmd said:

The 007 would eventually lock onto something but this was always annoying and frustrating when dealing with a moving person or animal as the AF precluded you from taking the shot..

I stopped using it ages ago. 

I use AFs..

Again, I realize that the focus is not ideal in low light and non-contrasty situations so manual focussing is frequently required..

Albert 😉

Thanks, Albert. I appreciate. 

Actually in my case, it never settle even with static subject and camera on Tripod. 

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[erlingmm]

I will not deny that the S has focus challenges, personally I especially struggle with near infinity on the S180, and focusing on stars with open aperture.

Still, I think the steadily improved ISO performance, and the DSLR format of the body, tempts people to use it as an action camera in low light, which it is not.

I think one of the strengths of the S is its versatility, and the improved ISO definitely extends its usage envelope a lot. But if I were really into following moving objects in sports, or expecting faultless AF in low light, I would probably choose another camera.

However, I appreciate the possibility to use it in low light. But I always use manual focus (AFs on pressing the joystick with my thumb, and possible correction manually afterwards), which I have been happy with since the S2, via S006 and now S007. And possibly on the S3...

Edited February 27, 2019 by erlingmm

[ZHNL]

31 minutes ago, erlingmm said:

I will not deny that the S has focus challenges, personally I especially struggle with near infinity on the S180, and focusing on stars with open aperture.

Still, I think the steadily improved ISO performance, and the DSLR format of the body, tempts people to use it as an action camera in low light, which it is not.

I think one of the strengths of the S is its versatility, and the improved ISO definitely extends its usage envelope a lot. But if I were really into following moving objects in sports, or expecting faultless AF in low light, I would probably choose another camera.

However, I appreciate the possibility to use it in low light. But I always use manual focus (AFs on pressing the joystick with my thumb, and possible correction manually afterwards), which I have been happy with since the S2, via S006 and now S007. And possibly on the S3...

Thank you for taking time to response. I agree with you about S's merit. I enjoy shooting it in field. I prefer SLR way to focus WO and shoot stop down handhold, especially manual focus.  

To my surprise,  S180 is one of most reliable AF S Lens I have and the only lens I can trust over distance and condition. I think there is definitely consistence problem in each lenses.