Entering the world of Leica

[pedaes]

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Agree, lens is critical element (excuse the pun), mores than camera body. If our new friend wants something affordable and is willing to stick to f5.6/8,  any previous generation Lieca lens will be fine, as will any current Zeiss or Voigtlander . We have put quite a lot of effort into trying to help Flyer in a numberof Posts, but when  you read he is seriously considering a SL with M lenses I worry that we have failed totally.

 

[IkarusJohn]

In practical terms, an M9, M(240) or M10 based camera will be fine.  Generally, Leica owners tend to look after their cameras.  So, an M9P or M-E with recently replaced sensor, M240-P, M262 or M10 would be a great start.  But, I’d have to agree the M10P is the best manifestation of the digital M camera (in my opinion, but I doubt I’m alone).  Flyer might not notice, but then he might want to start off with the best option - I don’t know.  If it were me, I’d probably buy an M10P, telling myself that this would be a lifetime purchase ... (yeah, right)

Similarly, there are lots  of cheaper alternatives to Leica M lenses, and many proponents of them here.  But Leica’s strengths are in lens design and manufacture.  Long term, if Flyer becomes a Leica user, his multifarious colection of M lenses, old and new, will become the heart of his system.  Cameras may well come and go as they inherently have a shorter life (we think).

So, my suggestion is probably a bit arse about face.  Sony, Canon and Nikon tend to sell lenses for their cameras whereas Leica makes cameras for their lenses - a truism, but I think this is fundamental to Leica.  Start with one lens - work out if you’re a wide guy, or prefer the slight telephoto end of things.  35mm is Leica’s biggest selling focal length (apparently), 28mm is a little wider (and more interesting, in my view), and 50mm a “standard” length (where some of Leica’s best lenses lie).  Then look at what lenses are available - I’d stay away from the faster Summiluxes if I could (hypocrite) as the extra stop comes at considerable expense without always giving better image quality (not always true, I’ll admit).

Once you’ve decided on your preferred focal length (28 or 35 or 50), look at the comments and reviews online.  It’s a bit of fun coming to grips with Summilux (f/1.4), Summicron (f/2) and Summarits (f/2.5) - were it me, I’d concentrate on Summicrons.  Then get a sense of pricing from the Buy/Sell part of this forum, dealers in the UK and eBay.  Being in NZ, eBay is my biggest source and I have had no trouble there.  Get your one lens, and get out and take photos.

Lenses broadly vary between historic, recent but pre-digital and digital.  The historic can be very interesting (I have a 1948 50mm f/2 collapsable lens, which is fun), the “pre-digital” are often designed by Dr Mandler who headed up the lens division of Leica Canada (many are extremely good - I have a 35 Summilux-M pre-Asph and a 75 Summilux, and both are amazing) and the modern digital aspherical lenses (designated by APSH) are design by Peter Karbe and his team, and they are amazing, but expensive.

So, were it me, I’d buy one Leica lens to get going.  I recently bought the 35 Summilux pre-aspherical for under 3,000 Euro and it is in fine condition.  Alternatively, the 28, 35 or 50 Summicron - any version - would be a good start ...

Edited February 18, 2019 by IkarusJohn

[Ko.Fe.]

3 hours ago, ianman said:

IYHO

Probably the worst advice I have ever read ! 

Then you don't know it is often difficult to understand.

  Looks like you decided to troll instead of asking why.

[a.noctilux]

Flyer,

you don't mention your budget for your Leica kit yet ?

Dreaming is free, but Leica is not 👻

Edited February 18, 2019 by a.noctilux

[bmills]

I bought a used M10 in great condition with a known history from a Leica dealer (the camera was traded in to get the M10-P) and a Summarit 35 f/2.4. I have zero complaints or regrets buying either the body or the lens. Maybe in time I'll realize the Summarit is limiting me in what I want to do or doesn't have the "look" I'm going for but it will have great resale value and I believe the value for the money is unrivaled. I'd looked at a Summicron 35 but the cost savings was nice and for the photography I do, that extra half stop wasn't worth the cost so I stuck with the Summarit and am blown away by the quality of the images made with the M10. It's my first Leica and for me, I really wanted to pair it with Leica glass and regret nothing.

If you're still kicking around what to do, I could not recommend that combination strongly enough.

[pico]

14 minutes ago, bmills said:

and a Summarit 35 f/2.4.

In my modest opinion you have made an excellent choice. Your lens will perform very well. Should you later adventure into faster lenses, keep the Summarit until you really find faster lenses are worthwhile for your work. In the meantime enjoy the most excellent Summarit!

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by pico

[Maxx71]

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Just do it. If you get a body other than the M10 you will wonder if you should have gone for the M10 body. Get the M10 and a Voigtlander which is cheaper than Zeiss. Use the kit for months and if you still love the M10 (which I have a feeling you will), then upgrade the glass to Zeiss or Leica. I love my M10 more than the M240. It has no video, it's slimmer and is the same size as the M7. The body gives me the experience of shooting a Leica M. No other body can do that because they are not a M. I know it's fun to contemplate about getting a new M but actually having it never gets old.

[bmills]

3 hours ago, pico said:

In my modest opinion you have made an excellent choice. Your lens will perform very well. Should you later adventure into faster lenses, keep the Summarit until you really find faster lenses are worthwhile for your work. In the meantime enjoy the most excellent Summarit!

Thanks for validating my choice, Pico! Also, my coworker is from Winona and I grew up in Burnsville outside the Twin Cities!

 

[bmills]

2 hours ago, Maxx71 said:

Just do it. If you get a body other than the M10 you will wonder if you should have gone for the M10 body.

This is 100% right. I toiled over saving some money and getting a 240 but I knew I’d feel it was a concession from what I really wanted and would regret the choice so I went with the M10. The 240 is a damn fine camera but for me, I decided that the M10 was the right move and knew that if I’d decided to go with the 240 for whatever reason I’d have that “shoulda got the M10” feeling. 

[oudjunk]

I always buy the used leica camera and Used M lenses (Used SL lens as well) for save my money.

Most of the used leica cameras and lens are always  the good condition (the price is expensive that why most of leica users use it with carefully) 

And I like the character of vintage lenses as well that hard to find the brand new. 

however, Voigtlander lenses are good lenses (i.e., 50 f1.2, 40 f1.2, 35, f1.2). if you can try it first, it would be better. 

someone doesn't like the voigtlander character.

[a.noctilux]

Buying used is fine.

However, someone must buy new at one point to offer later the same on second hand market.

Over time, and mainly upon my available money, I buy second hand or new.

Better yet, if I do like a gear bought second hand, if available new later, I just replace the "old with new" to "like it longer" 😉.

[sunil]

You can be certain about a few facts if you join the Leica club.

You WILL eventually buy the latest M camera, whether it is an M10 or an M11 down the road. So whatever you get now, it will be traded in or sold to buy that latest version.

You WILL eventually buy an M lens or lenses to fit your M body. Nothing else will satisfy, regardless of the quality, results or logical arguments. Buying an SL with M lenses will not satisfy as you will eventually convince yourself it is not optimal.

You have received plenty of sound advice on starting slow, buying an M240 or M9, renting, etc. etc. All good, but ultimately the above will hold true. Its only a question of how long. 

These are the facts. You are now hooked.

The Oracle has spoken. 

 

 

[Tragg]

I haven't read through all of the above posts so this may have been answered but do you have much experience with rangefinder cameras? If you are used to using an SLR you may not get on with a rangefinder. In addition Leica M cameras are not suited to all types of photography. There are better choices if you intend to do close up work for example. 

[ianman]

11 hours ago, sunil said:

The Oracle has spoken. 

But the Oracle is wrong.

Not everybody needs or wants the latest and "greatest" offerings. Personally, I don't understand that point of view. I read in another thread a few days/weeks ago, someone wrote that he was going back 100% to film because he was annoyed with the "constant" upgrades of the digital cameras... as if it was forced upon him! 🙄

 

[lucerne]

2 hours ago, Tragg said:

I haven't read through all of the above posts so this may have been answered but do you have much experience with rangefinder cameras? If you are used to using an SLR you may not get on with a rangefinder. In addition Leica M cameras are not suited to all types of photography. There are better choices if you intend to do close up work for example. 

You really should have read the debate and threads covering almost 8 weeks. We’ve considered many options.    Every response seems to add doubt and confusion into the mind of the OP because he doesn’t have a rangefinder to practice with.  It’s not clear what his current thinking is. He does want to be a Leica user but we can’t get over the problems of cost, and rangefinder operation.  The decision should be his, so our advice has to be based on our experience without being forceful.  . It’s his money.

 

[Flu]

Here's another wrench in the equation:

Get a Leica Q! You buy a kick ass 28mm lens for 3-3.5k used or 4-5k new and get an "M styled" body thrown in for free*!

Edited February 22, 2019 by Flu

[lucerne]

3 minutes ago, Flu said:

Here's another wrench in the equation:

Get a Leica Q! You buy a kick ass 28mm lens for 3-3.5k used or 4-5k new and get an "M styled" body thrown in for free*!

What!   Do you really believe that bit of original marketing hype?

since when was a Leica Q in any way like an M.    The OP wants to work with a rangefinder and a variety of lenses.  The Q is like a point and shoot.  When the Q reaches its end of life, the body and its 28mm lens become useless. Alternatively, a separate 28mm lens (and any other lens) can be used on any M body, and many non-leica bodies for ever.

i was really happy to see the back of my Q while it still worked. 

 

 

[IkarusJohn]

On 2/18/2019 at 10:44 PM, Flyer said:

It's me again and I am getting closer to a purchase so please be patient. 

After about 4 weeks of reading almost every blog and thread on Leica's I am close to buying an M camera but still have a few cinsiderations. 

Entering the world of Leica is more expensive than I had envisaged,  I can buy the M10 but I would only be able to put Voightlander or Zeiss glass on to, is this a mistake and should I even be thinking of a Leica if I can't afford the Leica glass? 

When I considered the SL I would only ever put M type lenses via an adaptor, or even worse put a Panasonic lens on it which just seems sacralidge. 

I have always been seduced by the body and only recently started to consider the lens first and the sensor second. 

Thing is its the body that gives that feel good factor so putting a Voightlander lens on an M10 would give more pleasure than a Leica lens on a M240? 

Strange really because my daughter bought a two year old car last week for what I was going to spend on a Leica and a Voightlander lens. 

I think I have champagne taste on a beer man's salary. 

But its nice to dream

 

Flyer

So what did you decide?

[lucerne]

2 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

So what did you decide?

+1

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Diegaulle]

My experience so far and recommendation for what it´s worth:

5 years ago I purchased a revised M9 with 2 years warranty together with a 50mm Summicron. Budget was restrained and I wanted to max the Leica factor. No "foreign" straps, no thumbs-up, no black logo, no display cover, no bug on the shutter. Just how the engineers meant it to be and for at least two years. At that time the M240 wasn´t yet on the market. Now I´m planning to buy an used M10.

I´d recommend anyone starting in the rangefinder world to begin with this setup even almost 10 years after the camera came out. Eventually, as someone said, you will buy the most recent model down the road. But that can wait.

Spend your money on a used Summicron (Eur 1.000) and fill the gap with a used whatever M until you reach your budget. Then master the combination.

I´d advise not to begin with Zeiss or Voigtlander. You´d have Leica in one hand and non-Leica in the other. I´m saying this knowing that on the computer monitor all three brands deliver for sure and I could probably not tell the difference without comparing side by side. I happen to live 1km away from the Photokina. I´ve had every Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander Lens in my hands within 3 hours time. With every twist of the aperture ring my brain told me "you know it´s not the same".

I guess I´m a fanboy 🤒

As for the ISO: with the M9 for me it´s 640 plus 2 stops in Lightroom. 2,5 stops for B&W. Above that it´s a compromise. It has always been. At sunset, take some pictures, enjoy the view, put the camera in your bag. Drink some bier and call it a day. Not worth struggling with the noise.

Cheers

Diego