Entering the world of Leica

[Flyer]

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It's me again and I am getting closer to a purchase so please be patient. 

After about 4 weeks of reading almost every blog and thread on Leica's I am close to buying an M camera but still have a few cinsiderations. 

Entering the world of Leica is more expensive than I had envisaged,  I can buy the M10 but I would only be able to put Voightlander or Zeiss glass on to, is this a mistake and should I even be thinking of a Leica if I can't afford the Leica glass? 

When I considered the SL I would only ever put M type lenses via an adaptor, or even worse put a Panasonic lens on it which just seems sacralidge. 

I have always been seduced by the body and only recently started to consider the lens first and the sensor second. 

Thing is its the body that gives that feel good factor so putting a Voightlander lens on an M10 would give more pleasure than a Leica lens on a M240? 

Strange really because my daughter bought a two year old car last week for what I was going to spend on a Leica and a Voightlander lens. 

I think I have champagne taste on a beer man's salary. 

But its nice to dream

 

Flyer

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[a.noctilux]

Flyer,

I fear that I can't help much.

Just some thoughts...

If the Leica body (had you hold/tried one then ?) is what you are looking for, any lens to begin with it may be fine.

Any gear (compatible M ! ) can be sold afterward with small loss (if you buy second hand).

Leica lenses can have some "flaws" (as other lenses/another brand), have a look at some threads here.

When you use another brand than Leitz/Leica lens, you may say to yourself 'maybe the Leica one is better suit'.

In my use, another brand than Leica can be "better * " than Leica equivalent (if exists).

 

* for example, I use for long time Leica 50mm Noctilux 1.0 and now I prefer Canon 'old' LTM 1.2/50 for most of my use,

lighter, shorter (so no blocking VF), E55 filter for color filters that I own, results are ok for me mostly for Monochrom

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by a.noctilux

[mjhoy]

buy a used m240 to see if you even like shooting with an m. you'd be able to sell it without too much of a loss.

[lucerne]

8 minutes ago, mjhoy said:

buy a used m240 to see if you even like shooting with an m. you'd be able to sell it without too much of a loss.

Good advice but Flyer is in the U.K.(as shown in his profile) , so one of the main dealers here  will be the logical source.   

The thought of him buying an M lens for an SL body suggests a degree of misunderstanding.  He would have no autofocus so it’s pointless.

get the m240, or M10 and a 50 or 30 Summicron, or Zeiss ZM 35 f/2 and be good to go.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by lucerne

[howiebrou]

I would suggest you try and rent a M with a M lens for a week and try it out. If it works out, buy used. There is no real need to buy a new M10 and lenses certainly don't need to be new but they hold their value better than the bodies because they are not really bettered in time with updated sensors etc.

[AdamSinger]

The Voigtlander lenses are good I have several, but  for me they  don't have the  Leica look. (look of course is a hard  to determine thing)  I would recommend either used Leica  lenses or  the Ziess M lenses  before the Voigtlander ones.  For me it's all about the lenses.   Bodies  come and go and get rendered into last  years pixel wonder , but lenses last for ever (if one is careful) . The choice  becomes becomes  haptics V glass. Good luck , its a  tough one.

[earleygallery]

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As above consider buying used to help your budget stretch further, a used M body with Summicron or Summarit lens perhaps? Also if you later decide the rangefinder isn't for you then you'll have little to lose if you sell it on.

That said, I wouldn't worry about only being able to afford a Voigtlander or Zeiss lens, they're fine lenses too.

[Ecar]

I'd get a used M9 (with replaced sensor) and, indeed, a used Summicron or Summarit.

Rationale: the M9 is full frame (and a great camera in its own right), a replaced sensor means it has gone through some checks by Leica not too long ago and used prices are attractive and unlikely to fall much further in the short term. Used 35/50 Summicrons and Summarits in good shape are not too hard to find - and prices are rather stable.

If you don't like the RF experience, you will be able to sell both body and lens with no (or little) loss.

If you enjoy it, "upgrades" (either body or lens - or both) will be easier from a budget perspective.

[TomB_tx]

As Ecar indicates, the big issue on spending so much on an M10 if you've never used a rangefinder is that some people just don't adapt to a rangefinder instead of an "SLR-Type" view through the lens. That's the main difference in using M lenses on an M body or an SL body. Yes, SL has autofocus with SL lenses, but some also works great with manual focus and M lenses. I use a Sony A7 body with manual lenses just by judging the image sharpness (no focus aids) as with ultra-wide and long lenses I prefer the SLR-type view to accessory finders on an M. But then I've used both M and SLR cameras for over 50 years. (An SL is much better with M lenses than the A7.)  For most of my photography I prefer the rangefinder M. An M camera is easiest with 28-90 mm lenses, and most of my shooting is with 35 and 50mm. On digital I use a 35mm most of the time, as it can be cropped to a 50 FOV and still give good results.

I have and use both M10 and M9, and agree that an M9 might be a great way to find out if rangefinders are for you. I use Leica, Zeiss, and Voigtlander lenses on both cameras, and the differences are pretty minor. You might try an M9 with a 35mm 2.5 Summarit if you "need" a Leica lens, or a 35 2.8 Zeiss, or even a 35 2.5 Voigtlander Color Skopar. I would be happy with any of the.

[lucerne]

I fear that today’s advice - albeit excellent- is going to further delay the op’s decision.   Introducing new alternatives two months after the original enquiry doesnt seem to help.   I loved and miss my M9 but we all know that the ISO performance is very limiting and the 240/M10 is the real deal.   The M9 is a compromise which introduces complications that he would be wise to avoid as a first time rangefinder user. 

The OP has started a  new thread here. Our advice started on another thread in January.   We’ve been through all the options already.  We haven’t helped because we keep introducing options.  

BTW.     He's in the UK.   

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by lucerne

[ianman]

8 minutes ago, lucerne said:

M9 but we all know that the ISO performance is very limiting

That's rather over the top.

It may be slightly limiting in certain situations but it's certainly not very limiting.

[Rob L]

The Voigtlander 35 1.7 Ultron and the 50 1.5 Nocton ASPH lenses are outstanding for under $1000 each new or $650 used. And they both adapt well to mirrorless if needed. A used M262 would be a great choice. These are all readily available on the more active forums like Fred Miranda and can always be resold at no loss later. Zeiss ZM are great too for about the same cost, but the CV lenses outperform at larger apertures.

[a.noctilux]

I think to another outsider digital M: ....M(typ 262).

more "modern" than M9 with a bit more money in second hand market

no trouble with sensor

in short, mine has "no trouble at all" for many years using it.

Coupled with one Summarit-M 2.5/35mm or 50mm this combo was sold in kit a while back.

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Flyer said:

 

Entering the world of Leica is more expensive than I had envisaged,  I can buy the M10 but I would only be able to put Voightlander or Zeiss glass on to, is this a mistake and should I even be thinking of a Leica if I can't afford the Leica glass? 

 

Cart before horse.  You don’t even know if you like the RF experience, which IMO is the heart of M use.  You said in another thread...

 

“LEICA M10

Beautiful camera but spending 8k with a lens scares me as I have never been a rangefinder type photographer. I used one for a couple of hours and loved the feel but felt that I would need the Vioflex 020 but then that adds more money and starts to defete (sic) the purpose in a way.”

 

So, if you’re being practical, listen to others’ advice regarding ways to first enter the M world without breaking the bank (and with only small loss if resale)... rent, demo, buy used, or an earlier model.  All digital Ms offer a relatively similar user experience with exceptional files.  If you don’t print, there are tons of cameras, including phones, that have sufficient IQ for screen viewing.  The more compelling distinctions relate to the viewing/focusing experience, ergonomics and handling, menu interface, etc.

Methinks the rest of your quandary relates to GAS.  You don’t need the latest and greatest to answer your fundamental questions.  And only YOU can answer them.. . by trying.

Jeff

 

[lucerne]

1 hour ago, ianman said:

That's rather over the top.

It may be slightly limiting in certain situations but it's certainly not very limiting.

I agree.  The M9 can be made to sing with practice.  I wish I had kept mine!.   We are experienced.   BUT In previous posts (rangefinder questions) the OP was concerned  that he would be shooting at 3200 .   He’s a very nervous potential buyer with absolutely no experience of these leica bodies.    We should be steering him towards the most practical body within his budget.   Try to find his previous forum thread and it will be clear.

Edited February 18, 2019 by lucerne

[lucerne]

1 hour ago, Rob L said:

The Voigtlander 35 1.7 Ultron and the 50 1.5 Nocton ASPH lenses are outstanding for under $1000 each new or $650 used. And they both adapt well to mirrorless if needed. A used M262 would be a great choice. These are all readily available on the more active forums like Fred Miranda and can always be resold at no loss later. Zeiss ZM are great too for about the same cost, but the CV lenses outperform at larger apertures.

All good recommendations but I wouldn’t advise a newbie based in the U.K. to buy secondhand  from anywhere other than the U.K.  If I buy from overseas, I buy in person while I’m there.

Of course, there are U.K. sellers trading on Fred Miranda. Make sure you know where the item is being sent from.

Edited February 18, 2019 by lucerne

[mujk]

4 hours ago, Ecar said:

I'd get a used M9 (with replaced sensor) and, indeed, a used Summicron or Summarit.

Rationale: the M9 is full frame (and a great camera in its own right), a replaced sensor means it has gone through some checks by Leica not too long ago and used prices are attractive and unlikely to fall much further in the short term. Used 35/50 Summicrons and Summarits in good shape are not too hard to find - and prices are rather stable.

If you don't like the RF experience, you will be able to sell both body and lens with no (or little) loss.

If you enjoy it, "upgrades" (either body or lens - or both) will be easier from a budget perspective.

+1

[earleygallery]

As I suggested in another thread, if it's rangefinder methodology that's worrying the OP they can buy a cheap rangefinder film camera (Zorki, Canonet, Olympus XA for example) to try it out for a few weeks.

Yes an M viewfinder is going to be better than any of those but it will at least help him decide if he will or won't like using a rangefinder camera.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Ko.Fe.]

M10 is the best available digital rangefinder camera at this moment. Which lens on it is next to irrelevant if you are into modern rangefinder photography. I know one professional photog, one of the only few who is actually using  digital M for work.

And even he has and using 30$ Jupiter-8 lens on M10. Because any of Leica M series works very well with not expensive non Leica RF lenses. FSU, old made in Japan, modern Cosina in CV mount. Glass and metal. Used as good as new. 

 

Or are you entering Leica world to wear Leica label?

Go for CL then. 3K with lens.

[ianman]

39 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

M10 is the best available digital rangefinder camera at this moment.

IYHO

39 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Which lens on it is next to irrelevant if you are into modern rangefinder photography.

Probably the worst advice I have ever read !