Is used Leica M9 is good for a first Leica or should I go to M10 for the newest and greatest?

[Stuart Richardson]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Given those prices, I would suggest you consider buying a used M9 or M10 from a Leica store in the US or Europe. If you buy from Europe, they will take the VAT off (for new items and demos), and you may find that even paying your custom's fees, it might be cheaper. I sold my M9 for 2500 USD two years ago I believe, and it was in very good condition with a brand new sensor. 

 

Ian -- you asked above why I might consider the M10 as better even though I like the colors better in the M9. In my opinion the results are not the only arbiter...if they were, I would not use anything other than my 4x5. I use the M10 as a compact, handy to use camera that I can bring with me and shoot with when I do not have the chance or desire to use a larger camera. I understand that for many, it is their primary camera. Beyond that, however, even though color is extremely important, it is also something I can address after the fact in processing. The M9 files come out of camera more to my liking, but as I said before, the M10 is indeed sharper and it is certainly more flexible with respect to ISO. I also find that it is much easier to focus accurately with longer lenses like a 75, 90 or 135. If I had the chance to have the same color response of the M9 in the M10, I would go for it, but it is a decision that ignores everything else about the M10 which is much nicer and frankly not reproducible in the M9. I cannot use an ISO 3200 photo from the M9, whereas it will do in a pinch from the M10... Overall the M10 is a better camera, but that does not mean that the M9 does not have an advantage in this one area.  I should say as well that the colors from the M10 ARE good...it is just that there really is something about the M9 colors that are especially lovely right out of the box in many cases. I use the S006 as my primary digital camera, and it has the same advantage...I have had mine since 2014 and do not plan on changing until I see something substantially better...so far I have not! 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[earleygallery]

Those prices are crazy - you'll pay circa £2K for a new sensor M9 or a bit more for an M240 in the UK.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Stuart Richardson]

By the way, a Leica cheat code is to buy the camera in some place like Denmark or Norway...their prices are high, but Leica likes to keep the prices more or less even around the world, and Denmark and Norway have really high VAT...24-25%. So basically you buy there and ship somewhere else outside of the EU and you get a 25% discount on your brand new camera. It does not always work, but certainly worth looking into if you are outside the EU (as Iceland is...though sadly I need to pay 24% VAT when it gets here, so I come out even!)

[Eric727]

5 hours ago, ianman said:

There was a well-known sensor glass corrosion issue. Get one with a new sensor and you zero problems. Where on earth do you get "so many problem" from?

The M9-P makes sense for some people. IIRC the sapphire glass is important to some. Personally, I wouldn't pay a premium for that. My M9, which I have been using, not babying, for almost 10 years doesn't have a mark on it's screen.

As for the M240, well as it's a CMOS rather than a CCD, it's different in so many ways. Do you need video? Do you need EVF, Do you need LiveView? Does the M9 re-cocking sound bother you? If the answer to any of those questions is "yes", then the M240 is for you. For me, the rendering of the CCD easily outweighs any of those.

Hi ianman,

thanks for the comments. 

there are many comments about talking about the M9 sensor issue, and I thought M9 is a problematic camera...

sorry if I make any mistake. 

Thank you. 

[pilot.watch.doctor]

Thank you Stuart for the VAT tip. We are travelling to Norway in late Spring this year so I will be looking for just such an opportunity.

[Eric727]

20 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You will be able to get great images from the M9, of similar IQ to the M10, but with different characteristics (CCD vs CMOs sensor). Few people would argue otherwise. 

What you get with the M10 are a whole load of things that make taking photos easier and more enjoyable: quieter shutter, direct ISO control, better LCD, EVF option, smaller, better viewfinder/rangefinder........the list goes on. The higher resolution makes surprisingly little difference to my images, but may do for you.

You lose little from the M9 by picking the M10, other than the CCD 'look' - if you value that - which I don't. And the M9 (IIRC) was much faster to wake up from sleep than the M240/M10, which (rightly or wrongly)  I put down to the characteristics of the CMOS sensor.

Edit: welcome to the forum!

Hi LocalHero1953,

Thanks for your comments. 

Never owned CCD sensor camera before, therefore I not sure about how the look. 

Are you using LR to edit your photos taken by Leica? If yes, may I know whether the “Leica colour” will still remain?

Thank you. 

[Eric727]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

17 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If you haven't picked it up yet, the M9 developed a major problem with its original sensor, fitted to all M9s. Not all sensors were affected, but quite a lot - it goes by the name of 'corrosion' - more specifically it affected the cover glass. Leica instituted a free replacement programme for all affected sensors at the time, but the programme was time limited, so there are M9s out there with original sensor which may still develop the fault. Initially the programme replaced the sensor with a new identical one, and then later with a revised version that was not vulnerable to corrosion. When buying a M9, you need to find out what sensor it has: original, replaced with identical, or replaced with upgraded. Leica still replaces sensors, but at a cost, so you can factor this into your purchase price.

Thanks LocalHero1953. 

I haven’t pick up any Leica but has started study the Leica price at Japan. 

Not sure why, but M240 price seems close to M9 while it is one generation newer than M9. Is it a flawed camera? It just seems weird. 

Thanks. 

[Eric727]

17 hours ago, NigelG said:

Map Camera Tokyo currently list good M9Ps at c 550000yen which even after the tax is removed for export equates to $4850 / £ 3750 / €4300!

I paid less than £2500 for an absolutely mint one from a UK leica dealer with a brand new sensor/service and only 1500 frames and even Leica Mayfair just had one available for £2750....

Hi NigelG,

Thanks for your comments. 

Do you know any honest and reliable Leica seller from UK that willing to ship internationally?

Or if possible, can you leave a website so I can contact them directly?

Thank you. 

[Eric727]

16 hours ago, pgk said:

I was offered an M9 for under £1k a couple of weeks ago - plenty of room for the cost of a new sensor and consequent warranty from Leica at this sort of price (I didn't buy it but I'm sure it sold so no pms please!). I have a friend with one bought new 7 years ago with o sensor problems - not all were affected so a cheap M9 can be a real bargain. All that said, I would not pay a high price for one unless the sensor had been sorted and proof offered simply because it is expensive to replace the sensor so an expensive M9 could become a very expensive M9.

Hi pgk,

Thanks for the comments. 

Do you have any idea roughly how much to change a M9 sensor?

Thank you. 

[Eric727]

16 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The M9 is a superb camera for people who like filmic color and who are mostly interested in photographing at ISO 160-400. The CCD look is excellent, and the images are still in some ways "better" than what I get out of the M10. If you are used to using film cameras and do not mind a slower, more manual workflow, I think the M9 is a great choice. If you do not have a lot of nostalgia for slide film colors and are coming from a more modern camera, you might find it less appealing. The M10 is, in my opinion, a lot nicer to use...it feels better in the hand, the VF is a bit better, the shutter is quieter, and live view can be very useful in a pinch. The ISO range is certainly a lot better, and the 24mp are indeed sharper than the 18mp in the M9. The battery is a lot better too. All that said, I still think the overall look of the files is better from the M9. It is not enough for me to go back to it, however. 

Basically, if you are not sure about whether you want a Leica, but you are used to film cameras or older digital cameras, I think an M9 is a reasonable first step (or even last step) into the Leica world. It was a truly great camera for its time, primarily on the strength of solving most of the problems of the M8 and pairing it with one of the best and last CCD´s found in a consumer camera. The downside is that it is now rather old, there are the sensor issues and the batteries are probably not going to last very long. 

The M10 is certainly the most refined digital M camera, and the most like a film M in use -- it is quiet, thinner, the battery lasts longer, and little things like the ISO wheel make the use convenient. It is also a better option for longer lenses or adapted lenses since you can use live view. I think the colors are the second best after the M9, and overall it is a exceptional camera. If you can handle the difference in price, it is certainly the M that will last you longer and be more comparable to modern cameras in terms of its ISO capabilities and features. 

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for the comments. 

I managed to find a new Leica M10 from HK at USD5,400 from Grey Market, and Authorised at USD6,700. Not sure what is the risk for grey market Leica. 

I can also found a new Leica M240 at USD3,400 from HK grey market. I am new to Leica forum, and I just think Leica should always purchase from a reliable authorised reseller for new or used. 

Would appreciate if you or anyone who have experience in purchase Leica grey market camera to share some thoughts. 

Thank you. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Eric727]

16 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The M9 is a superb camera for people who like filmic color and who are mostly interested in photographing at ISO 160-400. The CCD look is excellent, and the images are still in some ways "better" than what I get out of the M10. If you are used to using film cameras and do not mind a slower, more manual workflow, I think the M9 is a great choice. If you do not have a lot of nostalgia for slide film colors and are coming from a more modern camera, you might find it less appealing. The M10 is, in my opinion, a lot nicer to use...it feels better in the hand, the VF is a bit better, the shutter is quieter, and live view can be very useful in a pinch. The ISO range is certainly a lot better, and the 24mp are indeed sharper than the 18mp in the M9. The battery is a lot better too. All that said, I still think the overall look of the files is better from the M9. It is not enough for me to go back to it, however. 

Basically, if you are not sure about whether you want a Leica, but you are used to film cameras or older digital cameras, I think an M9 is a reasonable first step (or even last step) into the Leica world. It was a truly great camera for its time, primarily on the strength of solving most of the problems of the M8 and pairing it with one of the best and last CCD´s found in a consumer camera. The downside is that it is now rather old, there are the sensor issues and the batteries are probably not going to last very long. 

The M10 is certainly the most refined digital M camera, and the most like a film M in use -- it is quiet, thinner, the battery lasts longer, and little things like the ISO wheel make the use convenient. It is also a better option for longer lenses or adapted lenses since you can use live view. I think the colors are the second best after the M9, and overall it is a exceptional camera. If you can handle the difference in price, it is certainly the M that will last you longer and be more comparable to modern cameras in terms of its ISO capabilities and features. 

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for the comments. 

I managed to find a new Leica M10 from HK at USD5,400 from Grey Market, and Authorised at USD6,700. Not sure what is the risk for grey market Leica. 

I can also found a new Leica M240 at USD3,400 from HK grey market. I am new to Leica forum, and I just think Leica should always purchase from a reliable authorised reseller for new or used. 

Would appreciate if you or anyone who have experience in purchase Leica grey market camera to share some thoughts. 

Thank you. 

[Eric727]

11 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

In your situation, for some reasons M9 costs next to same as M10. Which is odd, here in NA, M9 is twice less comparing to used M10.

Go for M10.

It has size of normal M and it has battery capacity which makes sense. 

M9 is great if you have nostalgia for slide film scans :). 

 

Hi Ko.Fe.,

Thanks for your comments. 

I may seriously consider Leica M10 if I can’t find a good price M9. 

Thank you

[HeinzX]

I would go for a used M240 - plus EVF - or for a new M 10. I had a M 9 and afterwards a M 240 - which was imho superior to the M 9 and with which I could use some Canon Macro lenses by using an adapter. Because of my eyes I had to switch afterwards to an SL and an CL. A CL might be a consideration too for you if you want to use a broader range of focal lenghts.

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, Eric727 said:

Hi LocalHero1953,

Thanks for your comments. 

Never owned CCD sensor camera before, therefore I not sure about how the look. 

Are you using LR to edit your photos taken by Leica? If yes, may I know whether the “Leica colour” will still remain?

Thank you. 

Yes, I use Lightroom. I'm not sure what you mean by 'Leica colour', but using the basic Adobe Standard profile leaves the original raw file with minimal colour adjustment. There's always some - that's what raw developers do, even the very basic one in-camera that creates the preview on the LCD: they translate digital sensor data into visible screen colours. I found the M9 colours too strong, too artificial, compared to the M240. Others prefer the M9 colours, seeing them as the digital equivalent of Kodachrome.

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, Eric727 said:

Thanks LocalHero1953. 

I haven’t pick up any Leica but has started study the Leica price at Japan. 

Not sure why, but M240 price seems close to M9 while it is one generation newer than M9. Is it a flawed camera? It just seems weird. 

Thanks. 

I don't know why they are different either. IMO the M240 is a much better camera: quieter, liveview, video, takes the add-on EVF (so can use non-M lenses - longer, wider, without rangefinder coupling etc), more subtle colours.

[ianman]

8 hours ago, Eric727 said:

there are many comments about talking about the M9 sensor issue, and I thought M9 is a problematic camera...

Ah, I get what you meant now. There was one major issue, but many cameras were affected. 🙂

[pgk]

3 hours ago, Eric727 said:

Do you have any idea roughly how much to change a M9 sensor?

Not precisely but under £1k I think. As only Leica can do this you would need to ask them direct I'm afraid.

[Guest]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 12:45 PM, Eric727 said:

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for the comments. 

I managed to find a new Leica M10 from HK at USD5,400 from Grey Market, and Authorised at USD6,700. Not sure what is the risk for grey market Leica. 

I can also found a new Leica M240 at USD3,400 from HK grey market. I am new to Leica forum, and I just think Leica should always purchase from a reliable authorised reseller for new or used. 

Would appreciate if you or anyone who have experience in purchase Leica grey market camera to share some thoughts. 

Thank you. 

I always buy grey market in Hong Kong now as I've had too many instances of poor service from the HK boutiques and accredited dealers.

However, I'd be a little cautious about going for the cheapest price in Hong Kong. There are some dubious grey market sellers (especially the Tsim Sha Tsui outlets on Nathan Road), and also some excellent ones such as Fotopia, Meteor HK,  HK Rangefinder and M&K Kamera. The service from these four has always been excellent in my experience with M&K Kamera and Fotopia being the two standout dealers but not necessarily the cheapest.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Guest

[silverchrome]

On 2/19/2019 at 12:35 PM, Eric727 said:

Hi pgk,

Thanks for the comments. 

Do you have any idea roughly how much to change a M9 sensor?

Thank you. 

Leica charge 1550 Euros including VAT (£1350) to replace a sensor.  Leica increased the price of the sensor change in December last year: it used to be around the £1k mark. Before that, it was free.  

You should consider the possibility of future price increases when making a purchase, especially if you decide to buy an M9 that does not have the new sensor AND does not currently have any corrosion:  by the time the sensor corrodes, the price of the repair could be such that it isn't economically viable.

Personally, I wouldn't touch one without a new sensor (introduced last quarter of 2015) unless it is very very cheap.  

M9s with the new sensor can be bought quite easily from authorised dealers for about £2k, and that's with a warranty.

Avoid eBay because sellers there charge more than authorised dealers.  

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[NZDavid]

Eric, I have just been considering whether to repair or replace my M9 with the early signs of sensor corrosion. Love the camera, but the M10 looks like a more mature product.

Here's another option for you: Look for a used M10 in Singapore. Leica Store Singapore has several "pre-loved" M10s in stock at present priced from SGD7,383 to SGD7,999, plus the Typ 240 for $4,922.

Edited March 30, 2019 by NZDavid