M10-D: is “D” for dud dot diode?

[M9reno]

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Oh, dear:  Brand new M10-D brought home today from the new Leica Store in London, but the viewfinder display will not show the center diode (the red dot) when in manual metering.  Only when the exposure dial is on “A”  do I see the center dot shown between the digits of the automatically selected speed.  This in itself seems weird, not something I remember from my M240, M7, M6 etc.

Going to manual exposure, when the dial is turned, first one triangle diode > and then the other < appear in turn, but never the center dot, even when the correct exposure is reached.

I’m using a fully charged battery, which I’ve removed and replaced, as well as reset the camera and even changed lenses (28 Elmarit for 75 Lux).  Still same issue.

Does it look like I got a lemon sample, or am I missing something really obvious?

[IkarusJohn]

Sadly, sounds like a malfunctoin.  Mine shows the arrows > < and the dot in correct meter reading, with the flashing . to show I have exposure compensation set.

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[MyLeicaWorld]

Bring it back while it’s not too late..

[M9reno]

Thanks, both.  Now in daylight, and only when pointing the viewfinder at a bright part of the sky, the elusive center dot finally appears.  It is never alone but comes accompanied by a line segment on its upper right hand.  As in “dot to the power of one”.  Thankfully, lowering the viewfinder and attempting to expose for darker things below the horizon makes this Klingon reading disappear, and we are back to just the > < diodes, each appearing in turn, and never with the center dot.

I imagine the problem begins with some fault in the soldering of the metering diodes, perhaps a fault that was not yet visible to Leica QC when the camera was in the factory.  Still fairly infuriating, given a product of this price, right out of the box.

I’m bringing the camera back to the Leica Store today.  Surely this type of thing is handled by Leica as a straightforward exchange or return?  I don’t have time to play CS ping-pong between London, Oxford and Wetzlar with this particular lemon sample for the coming weeks or months.  Any more advice would be appreciated, and I will update later.

 

 

 

[NigelG]

You have 30 days to reject the goods (in England/Wales/NI)

“Under the Consumer Rights Act, you have an early right to reject goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, and get a full refund.”

[pedaes]

Sorry to hear. Not sure which shop you used, but if new I guess Aperture. I think you will need to be politely very firm if you want an exchange. Of course they may not have another in stock and then I think they will be reluctant to refund. I think the Legislation will give them the option of a repair, so I think you are  in for a disappointing wait. Best of luck and keep the faith.

[willeica]

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1 hour ago, M9reno said:

Thanks, both.  Now in daylight, and only when pointing the viewfinder at a bright part of the sky, the elusive center dot finally appears.  It is never alone but comes accompanied by a line segment on its upper right hand.  As in “dot to the power of one”.  Thankfully, lowering the viewfinder and attempting to expose for darker things below the horizon makes this Klingon reading disappear, and we are back to just the > < diodes, each appearing in turn, and never with the center dot.

I imagine the problem begins with some fault in the soldering of the metering diodes, perhaps a fault that was not yet visible to Leica QC when the camera was in the factory.  Still fairly infuriating, given a product of this price, right out of the box.

I’m bringing the camera back to the Leica Store today.  Surely this type of thing is handled by Leica as a straightforward exchange or return?  I don’t have time to play CS ping-pong between London, Oxford and Wetzlar with this particular lemon sample for the coming weeks or months.  Any more advice would be appreciated, and I will update later.

 

 

 

In a previous life I was head of consumer protection in Ireland. The Sale of Goods legislation is pretty much the same in both countries. You are entitled to a full refund  or an exchange to a new working example in this case. I would advise that you should check any replacement model in store.

William

[M9reno]

55 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Sorry to hear. Not sure which shop you used, but if new I guess Aperture. I think you will need to be politely very firm if you want an exchange. Of course they may not have another in stock and then I think they will be reluctant to refund.

It was the Leica Store in its new Duke Street Mayfair premises.  If they don’t have another in stock, it will have to be a refund since I won’t be able to wait for a repair.  I bought the camera as immediate gratification and consolation after the death of my mother earlier this month.  Also, ironically, because I won’t have the time o dedicate to film in the coming year - such will be the amount of overseas travel involved in the aftermath of the death.  If there’s any lesson to be learned from that it is that life is too short, especially to wait for a back and forth between the UK and Wetzlar.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, M9reno said:

It was the Leica Store in its new Duke Street Mayfair premises.  If they don’t have another in stock, it will have to be a refund since I won’t be able to wait for a repair.  I bought the camera as immediate gratification and consolation after the death of my mother earlier this month.  Also, ironically, because I won’t have the time o dedicate to film in the coming year - such will be the amount of overseas travel involved in the aftermath of the death.  If there’s any lesson to be learned from that it is that life is too short, especially to wait for a back and forth between the UK and Wetzlar.

I am sorry to hear about your mother, Alfonso. Please feel free to seek any further advice on this. Will we see you in Nottingham in April?

William

[M9reno]

The Leica Store saw the fault and took back the camera, and this week will have technicians confirm the fault, and will supposedly replace for a new M10-D if confirmed.  We will see.

Yes, Will, see you in Nottingham on April 6-7 for the Leica Society AGM. I look forward to catching up.

[willeica]

5 hours ago, M9reno said:

The Leica Store saw the fault and took back the camera, and this week will have technicians confirm the fault, and will supposedly replace for a new M10-D if confirmed.  We will see.

Yes, Will, see you in Nottingham on April 6-7 for the Leica Society AGM. I look forward to catching up.

Unless this is an empowerment issue, I am not sure what a technician can add. I doubt if he/she can do a repair without the need for a holiday in Wetzlar. Your rights are as set out above by NigelG and myself. I would say that a fully working replacement is in order.

I hope it all works out well for you and I look forward to seeing you again in Nottingham.

William

[M9reno]

16 minutes ago, willeica said:

Unless this is an empowerment issue, I am not sure what a technician can add. I doubt if he/she can do a repair without the need for a holiday in Wetzlar. Your rights are as set out above by NigelG and myself. I would say that a fully working replacement is in order.

The understanding with the fairly young (and I assume junior) member of staff on-site today was indeed that a fully working replacement is in order, and that the technician’s confirmation would be just a standard formality in the process of exchanging the camera. Unfortunately, it was a Sunday and both the technician and the replacement model are closed and off-site in the old premises on Burton Place, or so I was led to believe.  There was a firm undertaking that the problem would be solved this week by getting a fully working replacement in my hands, by courier if need be.  

We left it thus - we shall see. Thanks for your help, William.

[M9reno]

I called back today and cancelled the swap for a new camera.  I told them the truth, which is I've lost faith in the equipment, if this sort of thing can just happen out of the blue, out of the box.  Too much grief for too much money.  Better off without it...

Back to film.

 

[willeica]

19 hours ago, M9reno said:

I called back today and cancelled the swap for a new camera.  I told them the truth, which is I've lost faith in the equipment, if this sort of thing can just happen out of the blue, out of the box.  Too much grief for too much money.  Better off without it...

Back to film.

 

Sorry to hear that, Alfonso, but you are probably doing the right thing in the circumstances. Leica has issues with QC which need to be addressed before opening any more fancy boutiques with trendy young staff. The 'substance v style' balance needs to be correct for the long term interests of the company.

William

[WvE]

I'm actually reluctant to buy a new digital M. The M's being way overpriced, I would have expected Leica to put way more effort into QC.  

 

       

[M9reno]

1 hour ago, WvE said:

I'm actually reluctant to buy a new digital M. The M's being way overpriced, I would have expected Leica to put way more effort into QC.  

 

       

Having visited the new Wetzlar factory last year, and seen the amount of labor etc that goes into every piece of equipment, I actually don’t believe even a £6k-plus camera like the M10-D is overpriced... as long as what you get is a perfect product when you take it home and open the box, something that did not happen in this case, or indeed many other cases that appear all too often on this forum.  Of course one reads sceptically, thinks the odds are against “this happpening to me”, and takes the plunge. How simple it would be to give the customer what he expects, and send him off to have fun (or whatever) with his new wonderful camera! But four days and three trips to London later, I wish the idea of the M10-D had not even entered my head in the first place.

I think William is absolutely right that there is a general problem with Leica QC, and by contrast too much emphasis on the glamorous boutique side of the Leica operation.  I say this having just come from returning the rest of the equipment I bought (Viso and extra battery) and getting my whopping £7,245 refund.  But there was not a hint of apology for my inconvenience and disappointment, or regret that a long-time Leica customer walks out of a new store feeling very sour.

Indeed the boutique service is hollow if you’re made to feel just as if you were returning a cheap pair of trainers. “Here, try another sample of this item that might (or might not) have a basic, glaring fault” was the only thing I got, but when you’ve simply lost faith in the equipment, that kind of thing is just poor, not enough.  I’m not prepared to wait until I am on a Greek island, or somewhere in the middle of nowhere, next time a digital Leica’s electronics decide to go tits up on me  

”Sorry” would have been a better option, but it was not a word I heard today. I gather it isn’t a part of the “boutique experience.”  I’m afraid this kind of attitude lies at the root of the QC problems, so expect these to continue  

Simply and frankly put, Leica should be ashamed. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by M9reno

[willeica]

50 minutes ago, M9reno said:

Having visited the new Wetzlar factory last year, and seen the amount of labor etc that goes into every piece of equipment, I actually don’t believe even a £6k-plus camera like the M10-D is overpriced... as long as what you get is a perfect product when you take it home and open the box, something that did not happen in this case, or indeed many other cases that appear all too often on this forum.  Of course one reads sceptically, thinks the odds are against “this happpening to me”, and takes the plunge. How simple it would be to give the customer what he expects, and send him off to have fun (or whatever) with his new wonderful camera! But four days and three trips to London later, I wish the idea of the M10-D had not even entered my head in the first place.

I think William is absolutely right that there is a general problem with Leica QC, and by contrast too much emphasis on the glamorous boutique side of the Leica operation.  I say this having just come from returning the rest of the equipment I bought (Viso and extra battery) and getting my whopping £7,245 refund.  But there was not a hint of apology for my inconvenience and disappointment, or regret that a long-time Leica customer walks out of a new store feeling very sour.

Indeed the boutique service is hollow if you’re made to feel just as if you were returning a cheap pair of trainers. “Here, try another sample of this item that might (or might not) have a basic, glaring fault” was the only thing I got, but when you’ve simply lost faith in the equipment, that kind of thing is just poor, not enough.  I’m not prepared to wait until I am on a Greek island, or somewhere in the middle of nowhere, next time a digital Leica’s electronics decide to go tits up on me  

”Sorry” would have been a better option, but it was not a word I heard today. I gather it isn’t a part of the “boutique experience.”  I’m afraid this kind of attitude lies at the root of the QC problems, so expect these to continue  

Simply and frankly put, Leica should be ashamed. 

 We are all aware that Leica has QC and CS issues which need to be addressed. That is one of the reasons why the whole boutique business grates. I prefer to shop in stores where the person behind the counter knows more than I do about the products being sold and really appreciates my custom. A posh or trendy atmosphere can be a real turn off if it is not backed up by a good customer experience. Leica is a company in respect of which which a lot of us have invested a large amount of our hard earned cash in its products and this needs to be recognised at all levels in its distribution and service trains. I must add that in my case most of my 'investment' has been in vintage cameras, a substantial proportion of which, however, have come from auctioneers and retailers which are owned or controlled by Leica AG. I would like to see Leica invest more in the substance of quality control and customer care than it does in creating a somewhat vacuous flashy image with its stores. It will be difficult enough in the future for the camera industry and product differentiation needs to be based on real substance in a difficult marketplace. I hope that Leica listens to this message and tries to get on top of these issues.

William

[scott kirkpatrick]

23 hours ago, M9reno said:

I called back today and cancelled the swap for a new camera.  I told them the truth, which is I've lost faith in the equipment, if this sort of thing can just happen out of the blue, out of the box.  Too much grief for too much money.  Better off without it...

Back to film.

 

Sorry to hear that, as I feel my M10-D really does recreate the film experience at the M7 level, while having the digital capabilities to use lenses outside the scope of the film M's and offer a histogram when you need it (with EVF).  I've used two M10-D's, one a late pre-production unit, with no problems to date.  This one is my 9th digital M.  I've dropped them, scratched a lens (under passport warranty, fortunately), had the ISO dial on an M10 stop connecting, replaced an M9 sensor for corrosion, and each of them came back (eventually) in perfect working order.

The technician can run through a set of tests using only the firmware already in the camera and check every external control.  The test that I have seen doesn't exercise the exposure meter and the > o < indicators, but there should be another that does.  This lets them send the camera to the correct bench in Wetzlar where the malfunctioning piece can be replaced, so I think it is reasonable to have them do that.  If you are concerned, ask them to have their technician run through the final acceptance tests BEFORE you leave the shop with your replacement camera.

[ramarren]

Sheesh. ANY manufactured product, no matter what the price, can have a defect out of the box. Even bespoke products, made to order for a specific person or purpose, have defects even brand new, as delivered. It's the nature of manufacturing, of making, anything that it is possible to get something wrong. Just because something is expensive doesn't exempt it from this fact of life. 

So you got a new M10-D and it had a problem. Big freekin' deal. You exchange it or have it serviced under warranty. If you decide to return it and sign off from ever buying one, well, that just says to me you really didn't want it in the first place. 

I've had this happen with new things so many times I can't recount it. Example: Most recently, my long awaited and anticipated MiNT InstaKon RF70 camera was delivered. Nice piece, but it was sucking the batteries dry every other day. I spoke to the folks at MiNT ... sent it to them for evaluation and warranty. It came back working perfectly ... they found a fault with the battery level sensor portion of the board that caused a persistent battery drain. No big deal, I now have the silly camera I wanted. Makes great Instax Wide photos. 

98% of all Leica cameras sold have no problems whatsoever and you never hear from their owners at all. Some 1-2% have a minor problem and I hear this persistent whining and wailing about how terrible Leica quality control and build quality is. Just horse manure ... the industry norm across all products is between 2 and 5 percent defectives, at all levels of the price spectrum. This is the reality ... 😶

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[willeica]

13 minutes ago, ramarren said:

Sheesh. ANY manufactured product, no matter what the price, can have a defect out of the box. Even bespoke products, made to order for a specific person or purpose, have defects even brand new, as delivered. It's the nature of manufacturing, of making, anything that it is possible to get something wrong. Just because something is expensive doesn't exempt it from this fact of life. 

So you got a new M10-D and it had a problem. Big freekin' deal. You exchange it or have it serviced under warranty. If you decide to return it and sign off from ever buying one, well, that just says to me you really didn't want it in the first place. 

I've had this happen with new things so many times I can't recount it. Example: Most recently, my long awaited and anticipated MiNT InstaKon RF70 camera was delivered. Nice piece, but it was sucking the batteries dry every other day. I spoke to the folks at MiNT ... sent it to them for evaluation and warranty. It came back working perfectly ... they found a fault with the battery level sensor portion of the board that caused a persistent battery drain. No big deal, I now have the silly camera I wanted. Makes great Instax Wide photos. 

98% of all Leica cameras sold have no problems whatsoever and you never hear from their owners at all. Some 1-2% have a minor problem and I hear this persistent whining and wailing about how terrible Leica quality control and build quality is. Just horse manure ... the industry norm across all products is between 2 and 5 percent defectives, at all levels of the price spectrum. This is the reality ... 😶

I'll let Alfonso (M9reno) answer you on the subject of the M10-D, but, if it were me, I would regard your tone as somewhat extreme and aggressive. It has been my personal experience that Leica digital cameras suffer a higher failure/problem rate than other makes. Since I started to use Leica digital cameras I have had to send back 3 (out of 5) of them to Wetzlar for various jobs. Since I started to use Leica interchangeable lens digital cameras, I have also used 3 other makes of digital camera and none of them (out of 7) needed to be sent back to from whence they came. That is just my experience. I am not anti-Leica and I own about 40 Leica vintage cameras as proof of my enthusiasm for the make. I would not send my vintage models back to Leica, as fortunately I have a good repairman where I live.

We all want Leica to do a better job and succeed, but attacking someone who has had issues with a Leica camera and service does not help the brand at all.

William