Rangefinder questions

[Flyer]

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I have had some good help on this forum but I am still a little on the fence, please could you help with some of the below 

 

1. When using zone focusing, is it a case of choosing say f8/f11 for greater DOF to ensure you have a better chance of good focus on moving subjects? 

2. The above depending on light may mean using 3200 ISO or above to ensure correct SS. 

3. When focusing on people moving towards you how difficult to manual focus with the patch? 

4. How to focus on subjects towards the edge of the image without focus and recompose? 

5. When framing an image in Portrait mode is this more difficult to focus? 

Any links to hints and tips on using a rangefinder much appreciated 

Flyer

Edited February 15, 2019 by Flyer

[jaapv]

Zone focusing is not focusing. It is setting a distance range with acceptable unsharpness. You don't need a rangefinder camera to do so. A Brownie box camera will suffice: it has three settings: flower, stick figure and mountain.

 

Coming back to your questions.

You don't try and focus on the person walking towards you. (although it is quite possible to do so with practice), you set the rangefinder to a predetermined spot and as soon as the person reaches that spot you press the shutter.

With focus-recompose you introduce a geometrical error, which you can compensate for. The best technique is to focus on another object in the same plane of focus.

 

 

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[scott kirkpatrick]

Zone focusing became a thing when giants like Cartier-Bresson, Robert Frank, and Garry Winogrand walked the streets.  Their objective was to capture the vitality of cities and their people without affecting the scene by their own presence.  So they developed a shooting style in which the camera was carried at your side, aperture fixed at whatever seemed optimal for the lens used (f/5.6 to f/8, no more) and focus distance set by feel.  Then you raise the camera to your eye, frame, stabilize and squeeze, and lower it again.  The idea is for the photographer to be invisible and the shot not to be anticipated by any of the subjects in frame.  I don't think this works any more.  More common advice is to be unthreatening , engage a bit, don't lurk, and some even carry this to the point of being confrontational with their camera.  So there is time to focus and frame more carefully, get the horizon level if you care to, and choose whether to anticipate a situation as it develops, or wait for the moment that crystallizes the situation that is happening in front of you.  Or both.

[lucerne]

2 hours ago, Flyer said:

I have had some good help on this forum but I am still a little on the fence, please could you help with some of the below 

 

1. When using zone focusing, is it a case of choosing say f8/f11 for greater DOF to ensure you have a better chance of good focus on moving subjects? 

2. The above depending on light may mean using 3200 ISO or above to ensure correct SS. 

3. When focusing on people moving towards you how difficult to manual focus with the patch? 

4. How to focus on subjects towards the edge of the image without focus and recompose? 

5. When framing an image in Portrait mode is this more difficult to focus? 

Any links to hints and tips on using a rangefinder much appreciated 

Flyer

Flyer.

I don't think we are helping!  From your questions it seems like you are trying to match facilities on an M with your knowledge/experience of automatic systems on Canon, Leica etc.

1.Of course you will want to make an aperture decision based on required depth of field.   The M10 can make auto decisions regarding ISO within a range band that you decide. Most of us set the range once and rarely return to the menu.     The camera cannot vary aperture automatically.

2.  3200ISO is possible but not often likely.  I have used 200-600 everywhere.  I advise you to buy at least one f2 lens like a 50 or 30 summicron.   

3. You have one chance to use the patch for approaching subjects.   Miss the chance and you need to manually refocus.   If you want to track subjects and keep in focus, then the M10 cannot do that.   Thats not a problem. Choose an autofocus enabled body with lightning speed autofocus points all over the sensor.   Canon or Nikon specialise in those for sports shooters.  I found that experience boring, and the cameras are noisy.

4. You have to focus, lock exposure and recompose

5  No.

There are very few hints to give regarding rangefinders.    Its about practice.  You should be able to produce a good shot on attempt one, providing you understand the instructions regarding how the patch is to be used.  

You may need to purchase a diopter for the viewfinder depending on your eyesight.  There is no built in adjustment.

The whole point of a manual camera like the M10 is to slow down shooting, engage with the subject using focus, choose aperture and shoot.    That being said, you will be able to shoot at airshows with practice.   You just won't have 100% success.   Thats what makes it so enjoyable.  Your Skill versus machine-gun operation.

its make your mind up time (again!).   You want Leica, but you must choose the model that gives you as many of the features that you absolutely need.  Don't try to replicate your automatic cameras.

Good luck.

Edited February 15, 2019 by lucerne

[jankap]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb lucerne:

Don't try to replicate your automatic cameras.

+1

[willeica]

1 hour ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Zone focusing became a thing when giants like Cartier-Bresson, Robert Frank, and Garry Winogrand walked the streets.  Their objective was to capture the vitality of cities and their people without affecting the scene by their own presence.  So they developed a shooting style in which the camera was carried at your side, aperture fixed at whatever seemed optimal for the lens used (f/5.6 to f/8, no more) and focus distance set by feel.  Then you raise the camera to your eye, frame, stabilize and squeeze, and lower it again.  The idea is for the photographer to be invisible and the shot not to be anticipated by any of the subjects in frame.  I don't think this works any more.  More common advice is to be unthreatening , engage a bit, don't lurk, and some even carry this to the point of being confrontational with their camera.  So there is time to focus and frame more carefully, get the horizon level if you care to, and choose whether to anticipate a situation as it develops, or wait for the moment that crystallizes the situation that is happening in front of you.  Or both.

Zone focus still works for me in 2019, but you have to be brave enough to leave the rangefinder alone, particularly when using film. As for using a rangefinder on a moving target, this takes practice not only in terms of setting the right aperture, but also in turning the focus ring correctly in the right direction. It really is a case of practice makes perfect or, at least, acceptable.

William

[earleygallery]

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3 hours ago, Flyer said:

I have had some good help on this forum but I am still a little on the fence, please could you help with some of the below 

 

1. When using zone focusing, is it a case of choosing say f8/f11 for greater DOF to ensure you have a better chance of good focus on moving subjects? 

2. The above depending on light may mean using 3200 ISO or above to ensure correct SS. 

3. When focusing on people moving towards you how difficult to manual focus with the patch? 

4. How to focus on subjects towards the edge of the image without focus and recompose? 

5. When framing an image in Portrait mode is this more difficult to focus? 

Any links to hints and tips on using a rangefinder much appreciated 

Flyer

1. Study the depth of field scale on the lens barrel. This gives you a guide as to what will be in 'acceptable focus' for a given aperture and focus setting. There are various techniques for zone focussing such as finding a spot where your subject is likely to be be and focussing on that spot, and using an aperture of say f8 to allow for reasonable depth of field with a 50 or wider lens.

2. No, it depends on the light, and how well you can hand hold your camera at lower speeds.

3. See No1

4. Focus on the subject then recompose. Unless you're close up or using a Noctilux wide open, any variance in distance by recomposing is unlikely to make a difference.

5. No, just find a suitable object to focus on. Sometimes I will focus in portrait and shoot landscape and vice versa depending what it is I'm focussing on.

[TG14]

I have been using the m10 only for a few months so my comments are really newbie-ish.

1) i think zone with 50 is tough. 35 and below is easier. I recall a thread which talked about focusing on moving subjects.

3) this i found difficult too as i am still not as quick in focusing as i would like. But i expect this to get better with practice. However it also depends on how fast the person is moving.

5) i wouldnt say this is more difficult but it is different. In landscape mode, the patch moves horizontal so you are looking for vertical edges to focus on, ie line up vertical lines. In portait, you loom for horizontal lines instead as the patch moves vertically.

 

Hint: when starting out, find/practice on brightly lit subjects. It builds confidence when you nail a few initial shots.

[Photon42]

1 hour ago, lucerne said:

Flyer.

I don't think we are helping!  From your questions it seems like you are trying to match facilities on an M with your knowledge/experience of automatic systems on Canon, Leica etc.

 

well spotted.

[lucerne]

4 hours ago, lucerne said:

Flyer.

I don't think we are helping!  From your questions it seems like you are trying to match facilities on an M with your knowledge/experience of automatic systems on Canon, Leica etc.

.

Good luck.

Ive spotted an error on my earlier post.     I intended to say ".......experience of automatic systems on Canon, Nikon etc.

[Jeff S]

13 hours ago, earleygallery said:

1. Study the depth of field scale on the lens barrel. This gives you a guide as to what will be in 'acceptable focus' for a given aperture and focus setting. There are various techniques for zone focussing such as finding a spot where your subject is likely to be be and focussing on that spot, and using an aperture of say f8 to allow for reasonable depth of field with a 50 or wider lens.

 

I find it best to choose one stop down from that indicated, just to be safe, especially in the digital realm.

Jeff

[jaapv]

Indeed. That scale dates back to the thirties, is calculated for thick film and 6x9 cm prints. In this age, shifting by one stop may not be be sufficient, depending on the size of your print. 1 1/2 - 3 stops is better.

[250swb]

23 hours ago, Flyer said:

3. When focusing on people moving towards you how difficult to manual focus with the patch? 

If they are walking towards you focus on an area in front of them, pavement, lamppost, etc. recompose and then press the shutter when they get there. But if they are lunging towards you it's more difficult because they are after your camera, so don't bother with focus and just run.

Edited February 16, 2019 by 250swb

[lucerne]

Just pointing out..... the OP hasn’t bought the camera and doesn’t own any rangefinder.  He can’t perform tests or practice.   His posts are expressing the fears in his mind. Every additional technique that we propose are meaningless to him at this point and just confuse his decision making process.  

As far as worrying about maintaining focus as a subject is approaching, this isn’t such a problem. We know that shooting at f5.6 or f8 gives plenty of depth of field.  I never give it a thought.  Some you nail, some you don’t!  In fact, some out of focus areas add to the impact of the image.

In my own case, I bought my first digital rangefinder by mail order and without seeing or handling.   I then took a trip to India. Great results and never looked back.   I own only one M10 and too many lenses.    Keep it simple - I say.

Thousands of Leica rangefinder owners over a period of 100 years can’t be wrong!   

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by lucerne

[Ko.Fe.]

On 2/15/2019 at 4:31 AM, scott kirkpatrick said:

Zone focusing became a thing when giants like Cartier-Bresson, Robert Frank, and Garry Winogrand walked the streets.  Their objective was to capture the vitality of cities and their people without affecting the scene by their own presence.  So they developed a shooting style in which the camera was carried at your side, aperture fixed at whatever seemed optimal for the lens used (f/5.6 to f/8, no more) and focus distance set by feel.  Then you raise the camera to your eye, frame, stabilize and squeeze, and lower it again.  The idea is for the photographer to be invisible and the shot not to be anticipated by any of the subjects in frame.  I don't think this works any more.  More common advice is to be unthreatening , engage a bit, don't lurk, and some even carry this to the point of being confrontational with their camera.  So there is time to focus and frame more carefully, get the horizon level if you care to, and choose whether to anticipate a situation as it develops, or wait for the moment that crystallizes the situation that is happening in front of you.  Or both.

Sorry, but your version is just an interpretation..

Sports finders were on TLRs and press cameras. And professional photogs, war journalists used them.

And if you watch video available for how HCB and GW were taking pictures on the street, they used RF just  as often as scale.

It was not as single and primitive as you describe. You would often see both GW and HCB with cameras on the normal, classic neck strap. Or they both would have camera in the hand. And they would often come close to the subject and spend their time to frame and focus.

Have try it by yourself once. Then you are on busy street nobody cares of your present and obvious actions. 

HCB liked to have it pre-focused on 4 meters, sometimes. GW would walk so close people wouldn't think it is their pictures taken.

And of-course both measured, knew the light after decades. It was no aperture preset.  Light is changing on the streets. You'll know it once you'll try it.

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Ko.Fe.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Leaving the aperture preset is easier now that even RFs have exposure automation and even auto-ISO built in.  I agree that in the old days the shutter speed would most likely be set, and adjustments made to aperture first.  The "mark 1 eyeball" could be pretty accurate with practice.   

[Guest]

 

 Take my comments with a pinch of salt as my technique is poor by conventional standards, and my subject matter is mostly street or reportage (i.e. not studio, landscape, kids, sport, etc). Capturing the moment is more important to me than outright image quality.

I'm also somewhat relaxed about precise focus, and most of my street/reportage  photos are zone focussed, and I only use the rangefinder when I have time, and I'm close to the subject. I practice distance estimating (especially at 2m and 3m) every time I go out to take photos, and also have a good idea of the angle of view as I mostly just use one lens. Often, I don't even use the viewfinder.  

1. When using zone focusing, is it a case of choosing say f8/f11 for greater DOF to ensure you have a better chance of good focus on moving subjects? 

Zone focussing is easier when using wider lenses, i.e. 35mm and wider. I mostly use f5.6 to f8 on my 35mm Summicron if there's enough light, and with the distance usually set to around 3m. I nudge the focus tab either way if I think the subject is outside this range.

2. The above depending on light may mean using 3200 ISO or above to ensure correct SS. 

I shoot at higher ISO to give a better chance of nailing focus at the aperture & shutter speed I'm using. I used to set ISO manually but now find Auto ISO works really well on the M10.

3. When focusing on people moving towards you how difficult to manual focus with the patch? 

I don't even try....if I have the focus set at (say) 3 metres then I wait until the subject moves into that range.

4. How to focus on subjects towards the edge of the image without focus and recompose? 

I just guess the focus. Works OK if the aperture is f5.6 to f8, and the subject is not too close.

5. When framing an image in Portrait mode is this more difficult to focus? 

A bit of practice helps here though I do find it easier to focus when framing in landscape.

 

 

Rangefinders are more fun ! 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Guest

[a.noctilux]

I'd say "practice and practice and practice...".

Then technics would be forgotten (or become second nature without thinking about) after practicing.

In my view, no "automatic good results" can be obtained.

 

[IamTheDistance]

I think that your fears are the result of using other systems and technologies different than rangefinder so you are trying to adapt the usage of a rangefinder camera to a different system camera. 

1. When using zone focusing, is it a case of choosing say f8/f11 for greater DOF to ensure you have a better chance of good focus on moving subjects? 

I don't use greater depth of fields to ensure an easy focus, but to modify the look of the photo. f/8 will allow me to relate the main subject or subjects with the elements on the background, to tell a story. As a result, you will have almost everything in focus and you don't need to be precise when focusing.

2. The above depending on light may mean using 3200 ISO or above to ensure correct SS. 

Nowadays, cameras are good with high ISO. I've shot at 5000 ISO with the M10 and I found that the image quality was pretty decent.

3. When focusing on people moving towards you how difficult to manual focus with the patch? 

You have to predict the way of your subject. If the subject is a persona walking straight to you, just focus on the place you would like to shoot your subject and wait for it👍🏻

4. How to focus on subjects towards the edge of the image without focus and recompose? 

Recomposing is ok but be careful if your shooting at small apertures.

5. When framing an image in Portrait mode is this more difficult to focus? 

It depends on the pattern of your subjects. Sometimes is impossible to me but I usually use f/5.6 or f/8 so I just set the focus zone by the scale.

Don't be scare of rangefinders. Of course you have to practice but it's fun and not difficult. You will be so used to shoot with it that you won't look at the scale on the lens. You will set the focus by touching the tab of the lens. Knowing the position of the tab will tell you that it is set to 1.5m, 2m, 5m or infinite. 

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