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'Hopelist' for SL2


LocalHero1953

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10 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

... I am fully capable of realizing that you prefer 24mp, can you not consider that there are users for whom more megapixels is not about what you seem to paint as self-pleasure? You may not need big crops or big prints, but others do. For example, my last show featured a 170x220 cm print, and two 140x170cm prints that were made from composited 37mp files. The extra resolution was critical, not only to making them hold up to that size (which still took a lot of gymnastics), but also to making it easier to make selections and to give higher quality masks. ...

HI Stuart,

While I agree that some may have a legitimate need to do big crops or big prints, my suspicion is that this genuine demand is insignificant when compared to those who can see the number of MP a camera has, and they judge it as a measure of quality.  Camera manufacturers do this themselves by touting MP count, and making their "top of the line" cameras higher MP count.

I am a mere amateur.  I print big (by my standards) because I rather stupidly assume that a good picture needs to be printed ... well, big.  But I have yet to take a picture where the flaw in the image is lack of resolution, and I have been taking pictures since the 1960s.  The point is that 35mm photography is portable.  Its image format (24x36mm) is modest, and the lenses are manageable in the focal ranges that people popularly use.  I appreciate you will disagree with this, but if I was commercially printing 1.7metre x 2.2 metre prints, I would not be using any 35mm format system.

On the other side of the coin, I remain very happy with my 18MP Monochrom, and my 24MP M10 and SL.

Now, why should you be limited to modest 24MP pro-sumer output, and why shouldn't Leica and all the other 35mm manufacturers meet your needs for more MP?  Fair point, but the returns are marginal for what is in reality a small group  of people with legitimate need, and it is moving market demand into an area where many of us feel the consequences are adverse - greater care in taking the image, larger file sizes and more computer power.

As for cropping, that is not my idea of photography.  I prefer to se the whole frame, if possible - but maybe that's just me.

I know I'm on the losing side of this argument because Leica will produce higher MP cameras, and computer power and storage will become cheaper - that's just the way things are.  When my existing "modest" cameras die, I will probably end up using whatever the latest camera will offer - 100MP, with movable focal point and infinite dynamic range.  Who knows?  But I will probably still be taking pictures at ISO 50, and wouldn't mind returning to 18MP ...

Cheers
John

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Cropping........

I can't speak for others, but experience has taught me that when I crop substantially to get a better composition, I am almost always dissatisfied with the result. I am also sure that this is because I have had an incomplete idea of what I am photographing at the time of pressing the shutter; cropping introduces problems of perspective and merely highlight the lack of a clear eye. I should have been closer, I should have seen the distracting elements, I should have seen the blocky shadows.....and with people, shots at a distance look unengaged and snatched.

So being given more pixels just in order to crop would be of no benefit to me.

YMMV

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Leica needs to keep up with the FF megapixel hype for marketing/commercial reasons when everyone else is at 40+ MPx. A 24 MPx SL2 only the few enlightened will buy. There will be tons of threads about how the SL2 sensor is dated  vs. the Z7, the α7R III, and particularly the S1R that can take the same glas. Leica is first and foremost a business. Of course, they could refuse to engage in that race and be like Henry Clay. Clay ran three times for president, never made it, but is remembered for the phrase “I’d rather be right than president.” 🤣

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4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Good because they delayed the introduction of the SL2 from the Spring to the Fall to incorporate tech that makes it future proof for the next three to four years. 😀

Really ???? I presume that was tongue in cheek .....

I would have thought 90% of the SL2 was planned several years ago and that for a 2019 release they should already have working prototypes and are tooled up for production.

I can't see them sticking new technology in at this late stage .... firmware changes ..... possibly. 

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If history is anything to go by (and going by history seems to be working for Leica, to the disappointment of some, apparently), I don't think the SL2 is gong to adopt much in the way of ground breaking technology.  We may see an improvement in the EVF (it's still class leading, so I can't see much there), apparently we will see a new body (hopefully without more buttons and more complication), and I expect we will see an improvement in dynamic range, processing, video functionality and probably MP count (for no apparent reason, in my view).

But it should be remembered that Leica has always been about perfecting available technologies, as far as it can.  I can hear the cries of rage and the sounds of SL cameras being thrown across the room in tantrums as some discover that the SL2 is evolutionary, rather than revolutionary.  I'm sure it will be a very good camera, nonetheless; but I doubt it will lure me into an "upgrade". 

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Hi John, 

I do use other cameras than full frame for my large work, primarily the S and 4x5. My interest in the SL was as a backup that takes the same lenses of the S while doing better video. If it was also possible to show alongside S pictures without a large drop in quality, I would find that ideal and helpful in certain situations. Personally, I use cropping all the time to get to a 4x5 aspect ratio, for example, or to gain reach when the lens I have on the camera is not long enough. I agree that it is generally best to compose in camera at the time of shooting, and I indeed usually do that. But there are times when you find a photo within a photo or need, for example, to make a horizontal image out of a vertical frame or vice versa for a book or a show. I have not met many rigorous photographers who would not crop when it improved the image, though this is not to say they do not exist. 

As for megapixels, I am of course against megapixel wars, and I do think it is a bit ridiculous to make a 100mp point and shoot etc, but the SL is touted as a professional system with Leica's best or nearly best lenses alongside the S lenses. To keep them at 24mp when the pro market is largely going to 40+mp seems to be a losing proposition, but I am also touchy about it because Leica has been telling me that 37mp is enough since 2008 with the S2 (and in 2008 it was!), and frankly I am tired of arguing. I am glad the S3 is going to be higher, but frankly it is long overdue. I hope they don't make the same mistake with the SL system. Or if they do leave it at 24mp, it better be the same kind of low light and video monster that the A7S was when it was first announced...a truly game changing camera. 

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Interestingly, it could be said that the SL was also a game changer.  It just takes Leica longer to get there.

No doubt in my mind that the SL2 will have more MP - the CL & TL2 have 24 MP in APS-C format and the S3 is to have 64 MP.  Assuming Leica can maintain the micro lenses required for M lenses on the SL2, what does that suggest?  40 or 48 MP for the SL2?  I imagine processing power, heat management, LNER etc would all need to be factored in, with improved dynamic range and all the other things that go on under the hood will be occupying Leica's time and energy to make such a sensor work - who they get to make it, and is the order big enough to ensure continuity of supply etc etc

To what gain?  I guess to keep up with the Joneses - I just hope it doesn't spoil what is a fabulous camera for the sake of satisfying people who spend more time comparing specifications than actually taking pictures.  I appreciate you don't fall into the camp, but let me ask - at what point is cropping enough?  I'm not talking about rotation or cropping out the edges of the frame, but pursuing that "image within an image".  I predict that with 48 MP, you will inevitably find the limits and want more ...

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As a happy amateur, I am also happy to accept that there are some photos I just can't take with my cameras, so if getting that distant shot means I have to crop substantially, I rarely bother taking the shot in the first place - experience tells me I won't make it work. I emphasise 'substantially' - I'm as happy to straighten all my horizons and peripheral glitches as anyone.

Edited by LocalHero1953
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vor einer Stunde schrieb thighslapper:

Really ???? I presume that was tongue in cheek .....

I would have thought 90% of the SL2 was planned several years ago and that for a 2019 release they should already have working prototypes and are tooled up for production.

I can't see them sticking new technology in at this late stage .... firmware changes ..... possibly. 

Sure, but sometimes a delay at a supplier can make one’s own deliveries late. I’m just asking, what technology was introduced by a key supplier in 2015 and who hasn’t announced a next generation product yet? Otherwise, why give Panasonic more than a six month head start to try to win SL users over? 

Once Airbus couldn’t deliver planes because their lavatories weren’t ready yet.  😀 https://www.google.de/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/6a653a22-6738-11e7-9a66-93fb352ba1fe

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Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

this is why I crop.  More MP isn't 'keeping up with the Joneses' unless the Joneses are your competitors selling photos.  42MP camera, BTW.

 

 

Edited by wildlightphoto
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11 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I print big (by my standards) because I rather stupidly assume that a good picture needs to be printed ... well, big.  

Hi, out of curiosity, what size are you roughly printing when you describe them as “big”?

I’m the first to believe that megapixel wars are pointless, given the intended output (print vs screen) and the associated output size is the key thing .....once people individually decide that aspect, the decision for higher megapixels (or not) is much easier.  

For example, if I know I’m never going to print out a certain image, I’m quite content with the quality from an iPhone to look at it on my iMac.

But when it comes to printed images, I find that 24mp is rather lacking for my needs (I like 30”x20” at a minimum, and target up to 45”x30”). In this instance, a c. 50mp camera and SL Primes, would benefit the final output, especially for subjects containing fine detail like landscapes.

For even larger prints (“big” for me is 70”x55” ....ie, equating to 180cm x 140cm), I use my 4x5 camera + large drum scans. I still view it as the holy grail for image quality for large prints. If done right, the level of detail is obscene, entirely natural-looking, and with layer-on-layer of colour tonality.

Edited by Jon Warwick
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15 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

HI Stuart,

While I agree that some may have a legitimate need to do big crops or big prints, my suspicion is that this genuine demand is insignificant when compared to those who can see the number of MP a camera has, and they judge it as a measure of quality.  Camera manufacturers do this themselves by touting MP count, and making their "top of the line" cameras higher MP count.

I am a mere amateur.  I print big (by my standards) because I rather stupidly assume that a good picture needs to be printed ... well, big.  But I have yet to take a picture where the flaw in the image is lack of resolution, and I have been taking pictures since the 1960s.  The point is that 35mm photography is portable.  Its image format (24x36mm) is modest, and the lenses are manageable in the focal ranges that people popularly use.  I appreciate you will disagree with this, but if I was commercially printing 1.7metre x 2.2 metre prints, I would not be using any 35mm format system.

On the other side of the coin, I remain very happy with my 18MP Monochrom, and my 24MP M10 and SL.

Now, why should you be limited to modest 24MP pro-sumer output, and why shouldn't Leica and all the other 35mm manufacturers meet your needs for more MP?  Fair point, but the returns are marginal for what is in reality a small group  of people with legitimate need, and it is moving market demand into an area where many of us feel the consequences are adverse - greater care in taking the image, larger file sizes and more computer power.

As for cropping, that is not my idea of photography.  I prefer to se the whole frame, if possible - but maybe that's just me.

I know I'm on the losing side of this argument because Leica will produce higher MP cameras, and computer power and storage will become cheaper - that's just the way things are.  When my existing "modest" cameras die, I will probably end up using whatever the latest camera will offer - 100MP, with movable focal point and infinite dynamic range.  Who knows?  But I will probably still be taking pictures at ISO 50, and wouldn't mind returning to 18MP ...

Cheers
John

Well said. You see that Canon went up to 50MP and the increase of MP apparently caused problems. It might be telling that its new mirrorless is 30MP, not 50.

It is curious that so many photographers want to print so big these days. You look at the Gibsons, Egglestons, Kennas, and the like, and you see small prints in the galleries and exhibitions. Gibson's site shows that he sells prints up to 17x22. He says that larger prints can be made available, but you know that is the exception, not the rule. Kenna's prints are something like 15".  

One thing that's nice about Leica is its commitment to image quality. While many have grumbled about 24 MP, I think Leica should be applauded for sticking to its guns on quality. Maybe that's why you still see M9s commanding more than $3,000 on the used market. You certainly don't see that with used Sonys.  

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I don't believe Leica are luddites .... I just think they are oing to stick to three

16 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Interestingly, it could be said that the SL was also a game changer.  It just takes Leica longer to get there.

No doubt in my mind that the SL2 will have more MP - the CL & TL2 have 24 MP in APS-C format and the S3 is to have 64 MP.  Assuming Leica can maintain the micro lenses required for M lenses on the SL2, what does that suggest?  40 or 48 MP for the SL2?  I imagine processing power, heat management, LNER etc would all need to be factored in, with improved dynamic range and all the other things that go on under the hood will be occupying Leica's time and energy to make such a sensor work - who they get to make it, and is the order big enough to ensure continuity of supply etc etc

To what gain?  I guess to keep up with the Joneses - I just hope it doesn't spoil what is a fabulous camera for the sake of satisfying people who spend more time comparing specifications than actually taking pictures.  I appreciate you don't fall into the camp, but let me ask - at what point is cropping enough?  I'm not talking about rotation or cropping out the edges of the frame, but pursuing that "image within an image".  I predict that with 48 MP, you will inevitably find the limits and want more ...

I suppose you have to consider all these speculations in the light of three guiding Leica principles:

Image Quality

Simplicity

Ergonomics

Leica will adopt whatever technology is available if it doesn't compromise any of the above. If they can stick a higher mpx sensor in and maintain backward compatibility and performance at least as good as on the SL, they will do it. Similarly with IBIS or a tilting screen ..... if they feel it will compromise their chosen form factor they will not add it. Extra features have to come with significant gains and no compromises with the ethos of keeping the photographic experience as simple and transparent as possible. I suspect the SL2 will follow the M10 ..... basically the same camera but with enough improved to make it worth an upgrade. Anyone looking for gamechanging all singing, all dancing Sony killer is going to out of luck. 

Edited by thighslapper
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Yes, sort of.  Not sure who suggested Luddites.

I see it slightly differently - backwards compatibility,  priority given to the best image quality and user experience within the product placement.  If there isn’t a good reason for including a feature, it doesn’t make the cut.

I doubt that MP count is a priority in itself.  I don’t think Leica ignores it, it’s just not an importanr driver one way or the other.  They will just be looking for the best sensor for a given camera.  That said, they won’t be ingnoring consumer demand.

I’d be surprised if IBIS or a flip screen will be included, but what do I know?

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

...,  priority given to the best image quality and user experience within the product placement.  If there isn’t a good reason for including a feature, it doesn’t make the cut.

+1. And if there is a feature/technology that enhances the user experience they'd wait in order to incorporate it rather than rush product to market. Not only are they uncompromising on image quality when it comes to their modern lens design, with mirrorless bodies they prioritize how users feel when they interact with the product. They only came out with FF L-mount when they thought the technology was ready. Heck, that 2015 EVF is still state of the art.

They remind me a bit of how Steve Jobs responded when a journalist inquired about how he felt with regards to market share for Apple products. In the interview below he's asked: "There has been a suggestion that because of pricing and design [Leica] tends to appeal to kind of a smaller elite rather than that sort of mass customer base..." And then his answer 🤣

 

 

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

I don't believe Leica are luddites .... I just think they are oing to stick to three

I suppose you have to consider all these speculations in the light of three guiding Leica principles:

Image Quality

Simplicity

Ergonomics

Leica will adopt whatever technology is available if it doesn't compromise any of the above. If they can stick a higher mpx sensor in and maintain backward compatibility and performance at least as good as on the SL, they will do it. Similarly with IBIS or a tilting screen ..... if they feel it will compromise their chosen form factor they will not add it. Extra features have to come with significant gains and no compromises with the ethos of keeping the photographic experience as simple and transparent as possible. I suspect the SL2 will follow the M10 ..... basically the same camera but with enough improved to make it worth an upgrade. Anyone looking for gamechanging all singing, all dancing Sony killer is going to out of luck. 

Exactly.

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