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'Hopelist' for SL2


LocalHero1953

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2 hours ago, simon_hsn said:

I would love Leica to focus a on the video side: 
- IBIS (once you had it, you never want to go back, especially for video)
- Reliable continuous autofocus
- Internal 10 Bit 4.2.2 (maybe ProRes) recording
- External ProRes RAW output (Nikon announced it, Leica needs to follow suit, this is the future and the way to go)
- Headphone and Microphone jack (no adapter solution)
- Thunderbolt 3
- Support for the Panasonic XLR1

Keep the body size the same and provide the incremental updates, such as higher resolution viewfinder, better & faster Wifi (e.g. instant sharing to a phones Lightroom CC library), resolution of rear screen, etc. etc.)

Good times ahead!

....... well this is where it all goes pear shaped .... it appears with the current state of technology it's difficult to do all of this, have close to 50mpx and a compact body. The Panasonic S1R is far from compact and it clearly isn't aimed at video users. Sounds like you want a Sony A7Riii with a red dot on it. Panasonic, Nikon, Canon and Sony may have the sales volumes to justify several variants of the same camera ..... but does Leica ? 

That is the issue ...... if they don't produce a high mpx stills and a lower mpx video variant then there will be compromises ...... and no-one will be entirely happy, particularly as they have seen what the opposition can do. Of course Leica may play a blinder and shoehorn everything into an SL body ...... but to do that they will have to have access to something all the others don't (possibly kidnapped some Sony developers).

Personally, as long as there is higher resolution and optional LNER I don't really care what they do...... and there is always Panasonic to fall back on, because it is primarily the lenses that make Leica unique. 

 

Edited by thighslapper
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29 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

If the SL2 has at least 24MP (not too much more, as the returns are marginal against dealing with file sizes), WiFi, reasonable video, great lenses ... hang on ...🤔

There's a serious point there: that Leica is going to have to have one or two big headline 'improvements' over the SL, just to answer the question "why bother?".

My guess is that those two will be double the pixels (sadly, for me anyway) and a significantly new body shape - perhaps more S-like - perhaps smaller.

Everything else will come into the incremental category, or just 'better performance'.

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With the caveat that we have yet to see how good the sensors in the S1 and S1R really are let's assume they are state of the art and as good or better than any other FF body currently out there. How can Leica differentiate an SL2 from the S1 and S1R if those Lumix bodies fully support SL glass in exactly the same way that Leica does?

One would assume an SL2 would match the S bodies in terms of sensor, EVF and rear LCD quality and could do so in a similarly sized but more organic body than the current SL. Add IBIS and a flippy screen and presumably the body size and weight grows. It's not clear to me that Panasonic has an incentive to share their IBIS technology or their fancy AF firmware with Leica as previous re-badging agreements resulted in Leica cameras at price points that would not materially affect Lumix sales. Does Leica have the resources to replicate such technologies without buying them in?

If Leica produced an SL2 with a nod to the styling of the X1D body and essentially the same feature set as the current SL but with a top of the range sensor and EVF that might work for me. If they add all the bells and whistles of the S1 or S1R then I'd find it very hard to justify going with the likely Leica price premium over those Lumix bodies.

Oh, while I'm at it if they launched an SL2 which was as I described at the start of the previous paragraph and also announced compact, relatively light but optically excellent 16mm and 24mm SL primes which could take screw on filters I'd be a happy if financially poorer man. 😀  No harm in dreaming - it's that sort of thread after all. 😎

Edited by Bob Andersson
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vor 20 Minuten schrieb Bob Andersson:

One would assume an SL2 would match the S bodies in terms of sensor, EVF and rear LCD quality...

Definitely on the EVF. Check on that point. It’ll be virtually indistinguishable from the viewfinder of the S (seriously, next gen EPSON).

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Bob Andersson:

One would assume an SL2 would match the S bodies,...but more organic body than the current SL.

Organic and biodegradable would be nice.

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16 hours ago, thighslapper said:

....... well this is where it all goes pear shaped .... it appears with the current state of technology it's difficult to do all of this, have close to 50mpx and a compact body. The Panasonic S1R is far from compact and it clearly isn't aimed at video users. Sounds like you want a Sony A7Riii with a red dot on it. Panasonic, Nikon, Canon and Sony may have the sales volumes to justify several variants of the same camera ..... but does Leica ? 

That is the issue ...... if they don't produce a high mpx stills and a lower mpx video variant then there will be compromises ...... and no-one will be entirely happy, particularly as they have seen what the opposition can do. Of course Leica may play a blinder and shoehorn everything into an SL body ...... but to do that they will have to have access to something all the others don't (possibly kidnapped some Sony developers).

Personally, as long as there is higher resolution and optional LNER I don't really care what they do...... and there is always Panasonic to fall back on, because it is primarily the lenses that make Leica unique. 

 

Not an a7rIII at all. I would prefer 24 mp, so basically a Panasonic S1 with a red dot. 

I think it is very clear where things are going: there are two camps, one that wants more MPX and one that is fine with 24 MP and seek for better video capabilities. Both of these needs are already adressed by the new Panasonic offerings (or Sonys, Nikons), so I am asking myself, what will Leica do? They can either follow suit and offer two models (SL2 and SL2R) OR offer one model in the middle (like the Canon 5D with its compromises).

The thing is: I want a Leica Version of the S1, for the sake of its design and usability (less buttons, sleaker, less is more, etc). For me, the S series of Panasonic have such a horrible design (same with the Nikon Z and Sony A7) and really bad usability (Panasonic and Sony menus are horrible as compared to a Leica SL). The bar is just higher now and manufactutures need to follow suit, if they still want to attract the spoiled new generation. 

All I want is a Leica version of the S1 with ProRes Raw output over HDMI (which is technically also possible for the existing SL) with a modern wireless workflow (eg instant sharing to my Lightroom CC Library).

I am actually more worried about the lenses. This is where leica could differentiate in the past and still can with their M lenses (they are smaller and faster than anything on the market with a top notch build and decent performance). Although they are a small company, the SL lens lineup is just not convincing enough and the development is too slow. Besides that, for me, their strategy is not satisfactory in terms of their focus on sheer image quality vs size and usability (e.g. the 50 f1.4 ist just so big, so you also just go to medium format right away). I am looking forward to the new Summicron primes, though I think they are very big for f2 lenses (700 g for a 35 or 50 f2 is almost crazy). Where is Leica‘s USP here? (Maybe someone of you knows that, I am curious)

Obviously, Leica has not been very successful with its L system (in terms of sales) and I think its also because of the lenses. I really hope they continue the development, because the system is just so beautiful and loveley to use. Further, I hope they offer more variety in terms of lens development.  I am definetely not going to spend a lot of money on a SL2; so i can mount a huge Sigma lens on it, that is still using a dslr lens design with a ugly adapter glued onto it. If they do not come up with a better strategy, it will be Canon again, who will be the market leader, not because of their first released bodies, but because of the excellent and unique lenses.

Let‘s see what the future brings. 

Edited by simon_hsn
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55 minutes ago, simon_hsn said:

..........................

Obviously, Leica has not been very successful with its L system (in terms of sales) and I think its also because of the lenses. I really hope they continue the development, because the system is just so beautiful and loveley to use. Further, I hope they offer more variety in terms of lens development.  I am definetely not going to spend a lot of money on a SL2; so i can mount a huge Sigma lens on it, that is still using a dslr lens design with a ugly adapter glued onto it. If they do not come up with a better strategy, it will be Canon again, who will be the market leader, not because of their first released bodies, but because of the excellent and unique lenses.

Let‘s see what the future brings. 

- Can you quote Leica's sales figures, compared to target sales figures?

- It was the Sony A7 and Leica SL that were market leaders in this field, while Canon and Nikon dragged up the rear, years later.

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1 hour ago, simon_hsn said:

All I want is a Leica version of the S1 with ProRes Raw output over HDMI (which is technically also possible for the existing SL) with a modern wireless workflow (eg instant sharing to my Lightroom CC Library).

I hope that Leica chooses a less proprietary RAW format than ProRes Raw. This is totally off-topic, but I fail to see the advantage of a raw format that can only be read by software that is known for not being good at colour correction...

I see Leica taking this a step further: on-board RAW recording, or high-bitrate log. I've suggested this before: offer a "battery grip" that is also a 15mm rod attachment, and that can hold an M.2 SSD drive. A couple of XLR inputs would not be unwelcome...

Why carry around a clumsy, heavy, and power-hungry external recorder? It's just a fancy hard drive, most of the time.

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Unfortunately, I cannot quote on that for obvious reasons, but have a look at the following publicly available infos: 

https://www.bcnretail.com/market/detail/20190113_101128.html (Japan only)
https://sonymirrorlesspro.com/market-share-percentage-shows-sonys-full-frame-sales-leadership/ (worldwide)

Leica's full frame mirrorless market share seems to be less than 1% (more like 0.5%). Even though Leica is a niche player, this number is really small, given their first-to-market-approach and assuming the number may drop even further with Canon, Nikon and Panasonic just starting to get serious with mirrorless.You might also want to talk to a Leica store sales person and ask about recent sales of the SL. I will bet they will not be stoked :)

Besides, pretty much all the data indicates, that the camera market is shrinking and innovation is getting slower. It is eventually like in the audio industry, when data rates and processing power got so sufficient  that almost no difference can be achieved anymore in terms of its real life application. This is what is happening with photo quality. Better high ISO and we pretty much enter into the night vision business :) But does it really matter for photography or is this more or less for tech geeks?

The real area left to be developed in the coming years, in my opinion, is video. However, with 4k ProRes Raw around the corner (Nikon is offering this later this year), we will reach the point of sufficiency quite fast (off course, 8k will eventually come, but a very small number of people have houses or apartment so big so they can really make use of it (see https://bit.ly/2Xa26QH

ProResRaw or Raw in for video in general is a real game changer, just imagine when you could only shoot jpgs for stills and now you can capture raw stills. ProResRaw does not require the camera to do the processing, you basically just need fast enough storage to save the data and leave the processing to the much more powerful editing computer.  Good times ahead. 

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4 hours ago, simon_hsn said:

Not an a7rIII at all. I would prefer 24 mp, so basically a Panasonic S1 with a red dot. 

I think it is very clear where things are going: there are two camps, one that wants more MPX and one that is fine with 24 MP and seek for better video capabilities. Both of these needs are already adressed by the new Panasonic offerings (or Sonys, Nikons), so I am asking myself, what will Leica do? They can either follow suit and offer two models (SL2 and SL2R) OR offer one model in the middle (like the Canon 5D with its compromises).

The thing is: I want a Leica Version of the S1, for the sake of its design and usability (less buttons, sleaker, less is more, etc). For me, the S series of Panasonic have such a horrible design (same with the Nikon Z and Sony A7) and really bad usability (Panasonic and Sony menus are horrible as compared to a Leica SL). The bar is just higher now and manufactutures need to follow suit, if they still want to attract the spoiled new generation. 

All I want is a Leica version of the S1 with ProRes Raw output over HDMI (which is technically also possible for the existing SL) with a modern wireless workflow (eg instant sharing to my Lightroom CC Library).

I am actually more worried about the lenses. This is where leica could differentiate in the past and still can with their M lenses (they are smaller and faster than anything on the market with a top notch build and decent performance). Although they are a small company, the SL lens lineup is just not convincing enough and the development is too slow. Besides that, for me, their strategy is not satisfactory in terms of their focus on sheer image quality vs size and usability (e.g. the 50 f1.4 ist just so big, so you also just go to medium format right away). I am looking forward to the new Summicron primes, though I think they are very big for f2 lenses (700 g for a 35 or 50 f2 is almost crazy). Where is Leica‘s USP here? (Maybe someone of you knows that, I am curious)

Obviously, Leica has not been very successful with its L system (in terms of sales) and I think its also because of the lenses. I really hope they continue the development, because the system is just so beautiful and loveley to use. Further, I hope they offer more variety in terms of lens development.  I am definetely not going to spend a lot of money on a SL2; so i can mount a huge Sigma lens on it, that is still using a dslr lens design with a ugly adapter glued onto it. If they do not come up with a better strategy, it will be Canon again, who will be the market leader, not because of their first released bodies, but because of the excellent and unique lenses.

Let‘s see what the future brings. 

can't disagree with most of that :) ....... except the comments about lenses .... grumbles about size/weight have appeared on this forum innumerable times ....... Leica if anything tend to produce smaller lenses with less elements than the competition if you compare similar optical quality ....... look at the mirrorless Panasonic 50/1.4  .... it's much the same as the SL 50/1.4. Optics unfortunately follows the laws of diminishing returns .... and if you are going to have high mpx bodies you cannot use crappy plastic poorly formulated lenses..... and sticking AF and IOS in them also limits how small you can go. I'd like smaller, lighter lenses, but if it means reducing the optical quality I'd rather stay with things as they are. 

Edited by thighslapper
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5 hours ago, simon_hsn said:

Unfortunately, I cannot quote on that for obvious reasons, but have a look at the following publicly available infos: 

https://www.bcnretail.com/market/detail/20190113_101128.html (Japan only)
https://sonymirrorlesspro.com/market-share-percentage-shows-sonys-full-frame-sales-leadership/ (worldwide)

Leica's full frame mirrorless market share seems to be less than 1% (more like 0.5%). Even though Leica is a niche player, this number is really small, given their first-to-market-approach and assuming the number may drop even further with Canon, Nikon and Panasonic just starting to get serious with mirrorless.You might also want to talk to a Leica store sales person and ask about recent sales of the SL. I will bet they will not be stoked :)

Besides, pretty much all the data indicates, that the camera market is shrinking and innovation is getting slower. It is eventually like in the audio industry, when data rates and processing power got so sufficient  that almost no difference can be achieved anymore in terms of its real life application. This is what is happening with photo quality. Better high ISO and we pretty much enter into the night vision business :) But does it really matter for photography or is this more or less for tech geeks?

The real area left to be developed in the coming years, in my opinion, is video. However, with 4k ProRes Raw around the corner (Nikon is offering this later this year), we will reach the point of sufficiency quite fast (off course, 8k will eventually come, but a very small number of people have houses or apartment so big so they can really make use of it (see https://bit.ly/2Xa26QH

ProResRaw or Raw in for video in general is a real game changer, just imagine when you could only shoot jpgs for stills and now you can capture raw stills. ProResRaw does not require the camera to do the processing, you basically just need fast enough storage to save the data and leave the processing to the much more powerful editing computer.  Good times ahead. 

Sony were first to market (the A7 was just before the SL), and with their manufacturing and marketing clout it is not surprising they are doing well (especially given how slow Nikon and Canon have been). Leica does not price its products to win big sales, so I would not expect to see them figure high in market share. I doubt they are aiming for a big market share, but rather profitability (in a declining market, as you say). Talking to Leica dealers gives me the impression that SLs are selling reasonably well and the CL is selling very well: the L-mount was a good design move for Leica for its own products. I guess you could argue that the L-consortium is either a sign of desperation to win more lens sales, or simply leveraging one success by turning it into another. But this is just anecdotal; sales targets and sales data are the only way to tell how successful a system is.

I agree with you that video seems to be a growth area for mirrorless systems, though that is not something I will be getting into: I looked at it last year and decided I would first need to invest in computer power, rather than in cameras - video card/GPU, ram and local storage would all need money thrown at them!

Edited by LocalHero1953
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13 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I agree with you that video seems to be a growth area for mirrorless systems, though that is not something I will be getting into: I looked at it last year and decided I would first need to invest in computer power, rather than in cameras - video card/GPU, ram and local storage would all need money thrown at them!

Yup ...... we discussed this on a workshop last year ..... and the organiser said in his first year of vlogging he had archived over 2Tb of footage ... and that was the stuff he hadn't deleted .....

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On 2/12/2019 at 11:45 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

 

- Keep to 24Mp, but, as a consequence, with much better DR and low light performance. I don't want to have to replace my PC to get the image processing power, or to buy/rent extra storage, or to upgrade my broadband connection. Nobody who looks at and appreciates my photos would notice the extra pixels.

- Perhaps a separate version with 47Mp for those who have an audience of one (themselves) for their images, and look at them at pixel level; or for those whose clients demand it as a commercial entry ticket. (I don't like using more pixels to facilitate big cropping - it usually shows up as poor composition and unnatural perspective).

 

While I agree with you on most every point, the level of snark in your "audience of one" comment turned me off immediately. I am fully capable of realizing that you prefer 24mp, can you not consider that there are users for whom more megapixels is not about what you seem to paint as self-pleasure? You may not need big crops or big prints, but others do. For example, my last show featured a 170x220 cm print, and two 140x170cm prints that were made from composited 37mp files. The extra resolution was critical, not only to making them hold up to that size (which still took a lot of gymnastics), but also to making it easier to make selections and to give higher quality masks. 

The best choice is invariably two bodies, but I would appreciate if you did not paint everyone who has a different need regarding resolution so flippantly. Leica nearly killed the S system by keeping its resolution at 37mp for 10 years while their competitors in this end of the market (where megapixels are indeed of value to many users) flew past them, I would prefer they do not do the same thing with the SL... 

Edited by Stuart Richardson
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Thank you, and I completely understand your point of view. For many many people the added resolution is either unnecessary or just nice to have, but there are legitimate areas where the extra helps, and I am inclined to think that at the very high end (where all Leica sits), it is more important than in certain other areas. 

And you are so right about collaborating with a flash maker. I wish they would put in a Profoto remote trigger like Phase One. That truly would be a pro feature. I find it funny that HSS and TTL have been out for years, and I have never had a camera and flash combo that it worked with, because I have always been working Leica and film. I had the Metz with the Leica module and Hensel for studio lights, but more recently the Profoto B1 and A1 for which I had to buy generic transmitters. Profoto would be a perfect compliment to their brand identity, and their A1 and B series are a great fit for the SL system. 

Edited by Stuart Richardson
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The Lumix S cameras seem to have two different AF modes according to usage: A fast “nervous” mode for photos, and a slower, more refined AF for video mode that allows slow rolling in (or out) of focus.  I did not notice a similar behavior on the current SL. And it will be interesting, if this will also be implemented on an SL2.

I think an SL2 will need to offer a 47MP sensor and a high resolution mode of 187MP. The S1R sets that as the new “standard”. From reactions (or lack of) in the forum when video questions have been asked, I have the impression that mainly stills are taken with the SL. So a second video centric model with 24MP sensor is probably no good idea, regarding the small market for a SL2.

For me it is not important that I get it as soon as possible (in 2019), but we know that after a SL2 it will take another 3 to 4 years before the next generation will come. So I would not want to wait another 4 years to get a clear step up in resolution. I think then many users would simply jump ship to Panasonic.

Edited by caissa
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I hope that Leica will improve the power supply for the SL2 in two ways:

1         USB 3.1 with a battery/accumulator than can be charged inside the camera (plus in an external charger)

2         that the camera can also be used while it is charging.  (AFAIK the Z7 cannot, only charging, but not using it at same time)

By the way, the S1/R can both. Great for time lapse photography.

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb caissa:

For me it is not important that I get it as soon as possible (in 2019), but we know that after a SL2 it will take another 3 to 4 years before the next generation will come.

Good because they delayed the introduction of the SL2 from the Spring to the Fall to incorporate tech that makes it future proof for the next three to four years. 😀

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