Flyer Posted February 4, 2019 Share #1 Posted February 4, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) After about two weeks of research on which would be the best Leica for my needs I have come to the conclusion that none are appropriate "for my needs" which is a real shame because I really wanted one. I do mainly travel, landscapes and urban and after looking at all the options here is my conclusions. LEICA M10 Beautiful camera but spending 8k with a lens scares me as I have never been a rangefinder type photographer. I used one for a couple of hours and loved the feel but felt that I would need the Vioflex 020 but then that adds more money and starts to defete the purpose in a way. LEICA SL I almost pulled the trigger on this. It was sat in the basket and then I just thought the lens options are so difficult. I love the camera but 24-90 is a monster lens and there are No workable lenses you can use reliably the Novoflex EOS adaptor. Using M lenses only tend to defeat the purpose of the tech in the body, auto focus etc. LEICA Q-P Love this camera and ticks all the boxes but I can't see myself being limited to a 28mm lens, such a putty but I would need another camera for other focul ranges. LEICA CL Very nice camera but after 10 years of full frame I can't see myself going back to aps. Besides the lenses are expensive (for aps) and not very fast. So a Sony a7r III with zeiss lenses looks like the best option for my needs, which is a pity because I wanted a Leica so much but the Sony gives so many more options making it much more versatile even although it feels like a computer rather than a creative tool. Unless I am missing something, I think I will get buyers remorse if I buy a Sony🤔 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 Hi Flyer, Take a look here Why I couldn't pull the trigger on a Leica. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
steveclem Posted February 4, 2019 Share #2 Posted February 4, 2019 Buy the Sony and a used Leica/lens combo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 4, 2019 Share #3 Posted February 4, 2019 There is really no need to prefer Full Frame over APS these days. But the Canon marketing machine of the early 21st Century has brainwashed the entire photographic community pretty effectively. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 4, 2019 Share #4 Posted February 4, 2019 14 minutes ago, Flyer said: So a Sony a7r III with zeiss lenses looks like the best option for my needs, which is a pity because I wanted a Leica so much but the Sony gives so many more options making it much more versatile even although it feels like a computer rather than a creative tool. Unless I am missing something, I think I will get buyers remorse if I buy a Sony🤔 Tricky. I have Sony A7 series cameras and I really don't like/enjoy their interface at all. I've handled the Zeiss lenses and the Loxia range feel great but I'm a bit baffled by the manual aperture ring on them which seems like a halfway house to me - the camera's functionality is reduced by it. Odd design decision. But I get your reasoning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveclem Posted February 4, 2019 Share #5 Posted February 4, 2019 35 minutes ago, jaapv said: There is really no need to prefer Full Frame over APS these days. But the Canon marketing machine of the early 21st Century has brainwashed the entire photographic community pretty effectively. There is for me, I want a 35mm lens to act like a 35mm lens. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 4, 2019 Share #6 Posted February 4, 2019 It does act like a 35 mm lens; the sensor/film format does not change the focal length. It just records a more narrow angle on a smaller sensor. Just what you do when you frame a scene. Why don't you want it to act like a 35 mm lens on Medium Format? That is nice too... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Zapp Posted February 4, 2019 Share #7 Posted February 4, 2019 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) The agony of Leica not meeting needs is no new experience. The M5's ttl-metering was almost 10 years late. it was bulky and it was discontinued after only 4 years. We had to wait another 20 years for the M6. Small minds still complained about lack of ttl flash metering, reverse orientation of shutter speed dial, aperture priority metering. 14 plus 4 years more years to wait for that. Film loading was still akward, no fast shutter/sync speeds. As a teenager I studied photo magazines with frustration, because none of the system had all features and lenses I deemed as essential. Japanese APS-C DSLR systems never had the fast and compact primes I wanted. The first generation of mirrorless were lame ducks with an even more limited choice of lenses. Every new full-frame mirrorless system came with a "roadmap" for the complementary lenses that still failed to deliver the compact primes I expected from this innovation. Compared to that the current range of M, SL, CL, Q is almost boringly up-to-date, up to the competition, with better user interfaces. Strictly on a value-for-money-basis, it is hard to justify full-frame or Leica, let alone an upgrade or a change of system. At least for me with a nice inventory of M-lenses from the 1960s to 1980s in my cabinet, the upgrade to M10 was less annoying almost less costly than to any mirrorless full-frame system with "roadmap" or with adapters. Edited February 4, 2019 by Peter Zapp Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamTheDistance Posted February 4, 2019 Share #8 Posted February 4, 2019 If it's all about needs, not brands! Buying a Leica because the brand and then regretting because it lacks features you wanted is not good. If what you need is full frame sensor, electronic viewfinder, to carry compact bodies for travel/urban shots and not being attached to one focal length, then Sony is your only option here I think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted February 4, 2019 Share #9 Posted February 4, 2019 I think you have made some very reasonable conclusions on all Leica models. Maybe M10 is the camera that comes closest of these, because you only think it will be challenging to use a rangefinder. But probably it will be much easier than you fear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted February 4, 2019 Share #10 Posted February 4, 2019 "....I think I will get buyers remorse if I buy a Sony🤔" Sounds like you are in difficulty. Good luck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Vonn Posted February 4, 2019 Share #11 Posted February 4, 2019 1 hour ago, pgk said: I'm a bit baffled by the manual aperture ring on them which seems like a halfway house to me - the camera's functionality is reduced by it. I'm very curious/ interested by that observation. Could you expand on that? I have a number of Takumar and Nikkor lenses which on paper would be ideal for an A7 but even after factoring that these are manual focus lenses ripe for focus peaking, I still keep hearing that the haptics are somehow just not right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 4, 2019 Share #12 Posted February 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Flyer said: After about two weeks of research on which would be the best Leica for my needs I have come to the conclusion that none are appropriate "for my needs" which is a real shame because I really wanted one. I do mainly travel, landscapes and urban and after looking at all the options here is my conclusions. LEICA M10 Beautiful camera but spending 8k with a lens scares me as I have never been a rangefinder type photographer. I used one for a couple of hours and loved the feel but felt that I would need the Vioflex 020 but then that adds more money and starts to defete the purpose in a way. LEICA SL I almost pulled the trigger on this. It was sat in the basket and then I just thought the lens options are so difficult. I love the camera but 24-90 is a monster lens and there are No workable lenses you can use reliably the Novoflex EOS adaptor. Using M lenses only tend to defeat the purpose of the tech in the body, auto focus etc. LEICA Q-P Love this camera and ticks all the boxes but I can't see myself being limited to a 28mm lens, such a putty but I would need another camera for other focul ranges. LEICA CL Very nice camera but after 10 years of full frame I can't see myself going back to aps. Besides the lenses are expensive (for aps) and not very fast. So a Sony a7r III with zeiss lenses looks like the best option for my needs, which is a pity because I wanted a Leica so much but the Sony gives so many more options making it much more versatile even although it feels like a computer rather than a creative tool. Unless I am missing something, I think I will get buyers remorse if I buy a Sony🤔 I think I suggested in one of your other threads that the camera which most likely met your needs (in the Leica range) was the CL. As Jaap says the APSC format is not a reason not to choose it, using the native lenses in particular, but I can understand the reluctance to 'downsize'. You can still buy a Leica lens to use on your Sony - I have seen an M adaptor that turns them into autofocus as well, but ultimately you need to choose the equipment which best fits your needs/budget rather than just buying into a brand. That said it will be interesting to see what comes out of the recently announced Panasonic/Sigma partnership with Leica on the SL mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 4, 2019 Share #13 Posted February 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Ray Vonn said: I'm very curious/ interested by that observation. Could you expand on that? I have a number of Takumar and Nikkor lenses which on paper would be ideal for an A7 but even after factoring that these are manual focus lenses ripe for focus peaking, I still keep hearing that the haptics are somehow just not right. OK. The A7 series are capable of driving the aperture, in manual mode, from the camera body. Putting an aperture ring on the lens must disable this so reduces the ability of the camera to set the aperture altogether. Why do this? Adding complexity to a lens whilst reducing the usability of the camera body. Its inevitable with lenses not designed for Sony FE but with lenses actually designed for Sony FE it seems a rather strange move. It really frustrates me for a specialist application because I use Sony A7IIs underwater. I have a zoom control which can be used for focus instead which is great. The Loxia 21mm would be a potentially excellent underwater lens but I cannot change the aperture manually because there is no provision to do so and no gear control that I can convert (it would be used for focus). So I can't use this lens, and when I thought about it I decided that the whole concept of a aperture ring on a camera designed not to use them is a strange retro-ish one. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share #14 Posted February 4, 2019 5 hours ago, evikne said: I think you have made some very reasonable conclusions on all Leica models. Maybe M10 is the camera that comes closest of these, because you only think it will be challenging to use a rangefinder. But probably it will be much easier than you fear. I totally agree and its the only one I haven't ruled out 100% yet 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 4, 2019 Share #15 Posted February 4, 2019 There are less expensive ways to try the M experience without buying a new M10, through reputable dealers with warranty. And one can rent as well. These options apply to Leica and Sony. Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bankbank Posted February 11, 2019 Share #16 Posted February 11, 2019 I recently "downgraded" from a fullframe Sony A7Rii to an aps-c Fuji XT-3. IMO it didn't seem like a downgrade at all. I am a recreational photographer and the menu systems and handling of the Fuji won me over. Felt more fun with the Fuji, can't really explain. I guess that's all that matters? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted February 11, 2019 Share #17 Posted February 11, 2019 On 2/4/2019 at 4:25 PM, Flyer said: After about two weeks of research on which would be the best Leica for my needs I have come to the conclusion that none are appropriate "for my needs" which is a real shame because I really wanted one. I do mainly travel, landscapes and urban and after looking at all the options here is my conclusions. LEICA M10 Beautiful camera but spending 8k with a lens scares me as I have never been a rangefinder type photographer. I used one for a couple of hours and loved the feel but felt that I would need the Vioflex 020 but then that adds more money and starts to defete the purpose in a way. LEICA SL I almost pulled the trigger on this. It was sat in the basket and then I just thought the lens options are so difficult. I love the camera but 24-90 is a monster lens and there are No workable lenses you can use reliably the Novoflex EOS adaptor. Using M lenses only tend to defeat the purpose of the tech in the body, auto focus etc. LEICA Q-P Love this camera and ticks all the boxes but I can't see myself being limited to a 28mm lens, such a putty but I would need another camera for other focul ranges. LEICA CL Very nice camera but after 10 years of full frame I can't see myself going back to aps. Besides the lenses are expensive (for aps) and not very fast. So a Sony a7r III with zeiss lenses looks like the best option for my needs, which is a pity because I wanted a Leica so much but the Sony gives so many more options making it much more versatile even although it feels like a computer rather than a creative tool. Unless I am missing something, I think I will get buyers remorse if I buy a Sony🤔 get a Nikon Z7 and a Leica 50mm summilux. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 11, 2019 Share #18 Posted February 11, 2019 On 2/4/2019 at 10:25 PM, Flyer said: After about two weeks of research on which would be the best Leica for my needs I have come to the conclusion that none are appropriate "for my needs" which is a real shame because I really wanted one. I do mainly travel, landscapes and urban and after looking at all the options here is my conclusions. LEICA M10 Beautiful camera but spending 8k with a lens scares me as I have never been a rangefinder type photographer. I used one for a couple of hours and loved the feel but felt that I would need the Vioflex 020 but then that adds more money and starts to defete the purpose in a way. LEICA SL I almost pulled the trigger on this. It was sat in the basket and then I just thought the lens options are so difficult. I love the camera but 24-90 is a monster lens and there are No workable lenses you can use reliably the Novoflex EOS adaptor. Using M lenses only tend to defeat the purpose of the tech in the body, auto focus etc. LEICA Q-P Love this camera and ticks all the boxes but I can't see myself being limited to a 28mm lens, such a putty but I would need another camera for other focul ranges. LEICA CL Very nice camera but after 10 years of full frame I can't see myself going back to aps. Besides the lenses are expensive (for aps) and not very fast. So a Sony a7r III with zeiss lenses looks like the best option for my needs, which is a pity because I wanted a Leica so much but the Sony gives so many more options making it much more versatile even although it feels like a computer rather than a creative tool. Unless I am missing something, I think I will get buyers remorse if I buy a Sony🤔 Hi Flyer (maybe that was a bad choice of greeting), You don't say what you currently use, so I've assumed you're starting from scratch. If you do have a current system, and you're planning to use a Leica body with other lenses, I'd have to ask - what's the point? For me, Leica is all about the lenses and the cameras are (obviously) optimised for the lenses. Many here will say "Ho hum" and "Huff and puff", but really? Leica glass is fabulous, and tends to hold its value, and the cameras are built for them. I've been down the Sony camera/Leica lens route, and I won't be going there again. I've also been down the Sony/Sony route, and I prefer not to think about that ... If you're mainly taking travel, landscape and urban streetscape pictures, what focal lengths do you prefer? I'm much like you, and I like the range 21mm to 75mm. For that, the M cameras are perfect. I do have the Visoflex(020), and it is useful, but not critical if you can get your head around the rangefinder. Provided your lenses and your camera are well calibrated, there is no reason to be diffident about the rangefinder. Sure, it's about 60 years out of date, but it works - it works really well, once you've got the hang of it. The Visoflex is good for longer and wider focal lengths and macro, but it isn't really necessary if you're comfortable with the 28-75mm focal range. The SL is a fantastic universal platform, and the lenses are unsurpassed. If I'm taking this camera out, I tend to take the 16-35mm zoom and the 50 Summilux-SL. Great combo, and both really good in the hand. Yes, they're bigger than the M lenses, but if you want M lenses, then get an M camera ... Bigger than the opposition? Not really. If you want a single lens, the 24-90mm zoom is really good. I'm with you on full frame, but then the TL2/CL cameras are also very good, but different again. This hasn't helped, has it ... John Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share #19 Posted February 18, 2019 Hi John Thanks for the detailed response, and as you know the world of camera gear (for some) is a maze. I have used many combo's over the years but never spent £6000 on a body alone that has nne of the latest features, but then again that's not why you buy a leica. I have a Canon DSLR for my wildlife and BIF whic h I will be keeping, but wanted a smaller set up for travel etc. I know I could buy a Fuji x100f that would do more than an M10 would but it won't feel the same and that's where the challenge is. £7000 for a Leica that will give me that inner satisfaction of using a creative tool or will I have buyers remorse at spending all that money when I could spend £1200 and get similar results but still continue to dream of a leica? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted February 18, 2019 Share #20 Posted February 18, 2019 24 minutes ago, Flyer said: £7000 for a Leica that will give me that inner satisfaction of using a creative tool or will I have buyers remorse at spending all that money when I could spend £1200 and get similar results but still continue to dream of a leica? Leica M10 is definitely not for everyone. But if there is a match between you and the camera, I will say it's worth the money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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