Panasonic S1/S1R Thoughts From SL Owners?

[Bob Andersson]

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1 minute ago, Agent M10 said:

I don’t see Leica’s direction being a bunch of f3.2 and f4 lenses. What I see now that we have Nikon, Canon, and Panasonic in the mirrorless game is that Leica was ahead of the curve. It configured a camera that is both elegant and able to manage the new era of optics like the 50mmSL. What will be interesting to see is what effect, if any, that the Panasonic will have on the Fujis and Hasselblads. Why go mini-MF when.you can go FF with 47 MP and fast optics? As for me, I’m happy with the SL and am looking forward to the 50mm Cron. If Leica outdoes the SL with an SL2 this year, I’ll be even happier.

I was thinking more about body direction than lens direction. Applying the 0.78 "crop factor" to the MF apertures yields slightly shallower depth of field, of course, and there's always the 80mm f1.9 XCD if you want an exception to the "rule" but I take your point. 🙂

[Agent M10]

22 minutes ago, Bob Andersson said:

I was thinking more about body direction than lens direction. Applying the 0.78 "crop factor" to the MF apertures yields slightly shallower depth of field, of course, and there's always the 80mm f1.9 XCD if you want an exception to the "rule" but I take your point. 🙂

Yes, the 80mm f1.9 weighs virtually the same as the 50LuxSL, and it's, what, a 63mm equivalent. Then you'd probably need to stop the 80mm down a bit to get the desired depth of field. (We see that with the S line, too.) Anyway, I think what Panasonic has shown us is that there aren't any shortcuts to weight with digital. If there were, I think we would have seen them in the S1. Now that the last big dog has shown its hand, it'll be interesting to see how the future pans out. Personally, I think we're entering into the new slow. We've had ten years of hair-on-fire innovation, the L-Mount alliance seems a smart move because now all the improvements are seem incremental. 

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[mls1483]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb jrp:

The high iso performance of the s1 seems much better than the s1r, from some of the early pre-production reviews.   Life is full of trade offs 

 

Sure - larger pixl size.

The really interesting thing is - and nobody seems to take notice - the 47 MP sensor is NOT a BSI sensor. This was advertised as being crucial for high ISO performance (by Sony and its customers like Nikon). So let's see, how the S1R compares to the Nikon D850, Nikon Z7 or the Sony A7rIII.

By the way, front side illuminated sensors make nicer pictures - to my opinion. The Noctilux is much better on the M or the SL (FSI) compared to the Sony A7RII or A7RIII (all BSI). In fact, even the A7R (front side illuminated)showed a nicer rendering with the Noctilux (still worse than M or SL). The Nikon Z and D850 I do not know (i.e. I cannot compared directly). So, this might be an intersting point for th S1R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Interesting indeed - and might make my decision to buy SL2 less clear cut, assuming it uses the same sensor as the S1R.

[ynp]

31 minutes ago, mls1483 said:

 

By the way, front side illuminated sensors make nicer pictures - to my opinion. The Noctilux is much better on the M or the SL (FSI) compared to the Sony A7RII or A7RIII (all BSI). In fact, even the A7R (front side illuminated)showed a nicer rendering with the Noctilux (still worse than M or SL). The Nikon Z and D850 I do not know (i.e. I cannot compared directly). So, this might be an intersting point for th S1R.

One more knowledgeable friend of mine says that the new Panasonic sensor , with its contrast detection AF, will not be affected by PDAF striping and banding like the newest Sony sensors does. 

Looking forward to seeing the real tests. 

[mike3996]

43 minutes ago, mls1483 said:

The really interesting thing is - and nobody seems to take notice - the 47 MP sensor is NOT a BSI sensor. This was advertised as being crucial for high ISO performance

When Fuji brought BSI to their XT3 the ISO performance only got worse over the previous model.

 

I remain  skeptical how CDAF performs in the dark. In good light it's very good with my existing cameras (Leica Q, Olympus) and super duper fast. But when the light levels hit very poor levels, both of these cameras have big difficulties to lock focus. (In contrast, in this poor light my otherwise slower-to-focus Fuji X100T happily used its PDAF+CDAF combo to achieve speedy and accurate focus...) Focus aid lights help, but the real revelation to me was the "Vegas test" when I traveled to Vegas and shot touristy shots with Q at night. The CDAF technology simply can't distinguish between the hard edge of a bokeh ball and being out of focus. This is when you shoot pointlike sources of light at dark. This can be painful as you don't always know what size the bokeh ball will be when the camera decides it's in focus -- something you may not see in your high-res EVF.

[jrp]

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The early (Sony) spin when BSi arrived was that is didn't help that much on full frame.  Now that Sony has it on full frame it's indispensable.  Anyway, proof of the pudding will be in some sample raw files and sensor data.  The ergonomics /  cosmetics are gravy.

[Agent M10]

1 hour ago, ynp said:

One more knowledgeable friend of mine says that the new Panasonic sensor , with its contrast detection AF, will not be affected by PDAF striping and banding like the newest Sony sensors does. 

Looking forward to seeing the real tests. 

This article speaks about the sensors.

[jrp]

8 hours ago, helged said:

As expected. Nikon D5 hasn't a low resolution sensor without a reason...

Sure. But what happens if you downsize your raw to D5 size? There will be some effective noise reduction. Enough to catch up? We will find out soon enough. 

[jrp]

2 hours ago, mls1483 said:

By the way, front side illuminated sensors make nicer pictures - to my opinion. The Noctilux is much better on the M or the SL (FSI) compared to the Sony A7RII or A7RIII (all BSI). 

Why is this BSI rather than, eg, sensor glass thickness?

 

[ron777]

I had my hand on the mouse, ready to hit the preorder button, when I was struck by an epiphany.  What will this new Panasonic S1R provide that cannot already be achieved with my SL or Sony A7rIII?

The Sensor is only 5MP larger than the Sony’s ... IMO, insignificant.  It has, on paper, great video capability, but that feature has no relevance for me since I don’t do video anymore, and if I needed to do so I would dust off my old Sony F55 shoulder cam.

The S1R has IBIS, but so does the Sony, and while the SL does not, my most used lens—the 24-90—has OIS.  Not as effective as IBIS, but acceptable.

Is its AF better than the SL?  Remains to be seen.  Is it better than the Sony? Who knows, but that remains to be seen.

Is it as light, small and portable as the Sony? Definitely not, not even when the battery grip and a Sony GM lens is mounted.

And then I recalled my earlier revelation, that it is slightly larger and heavier than my already weighty SL, and I took a deep breath, lifted my hand from the mouse, slid my credit card back into my wallet and left the room.

Will I revisit the S1R after the real world evaluations begin pouring in?  That will depend upon the presence or absence of a GAS attack.  But for this old dude, right now, lighter and smaller is better.

[jrp]

Sounds that, with what you already have, if you really need to spend, buy lenses.

[Donzo98]

1 hour ago, ron777 said:

I had my hand on the mouse, ready to hit the preorder button, when I was struck by an epiphany.  What will this new Panasonic S1R provide that cannot already be achieved with my SL or Sony A7rIII?

The Sensor is only 5MP larger than the Sony’s ... IMO, insignificant.  It has, on paper, great video capability, but that feature has no relevance for me since I don’t do video anymore, and if I needed to do so I would dust off my old Sony F55 shoulder cam.

The S1R has IBIS, but so does the Sony, and while the SL does not, my most used lens—the 24-90—has OIS.  Not as effective as IBIS, but acceptable.

Is its AF better than the SL?  Remains to be seen.  Is it better than the Sony? Who knows, but that remains to be seen.

Is it as light, small and portable as the Sony? Definitely not, not even when the battery grip and a Sony GM lens is mounted.

And then I recalled my earlier revelation, that it is slightly larger and heavier than my already weighty SL, and I took a deep breath, lifted my hand from the mouse, slid my credit card back into my wallet and left the room.

Will I revisit the S1R after the real world evaluations begin pouring in?  That will depend upon the presence or absence of a GAS attack.  But for this old dude, right now, lighter and smaller is better.

So... when is it coming

[MarkP]

My SL was bought before a trip to the Utah national parks last year and proved itself for image quality, weather/dust sealing, convenience of an outstanding zoom (24-90), as well as being suitable for my other landscape work, esp in more challenging environments where I just don't worry. I have not bought any of the SL primes yet as I'm waiting for the 50 Summicron-SL to be released. 

For city, travel, street, (and some landscape where I want to travel very light) I much prefer my M-system. Furthermore the SL has allowed me to maintain  much compatibility with my extensive M-system.

I'm off to Patagonia/Antarctica in March 2020 and need to decide whether the SL is 'adequate'.  System options include keeping the SL, going to the SL2 or S1R, or dumping the SL and moving to mini-MF with an XD1 or GFX100R (which has tempted me for a little while).  I cannot possibly justify the price of a Leica S system (and I'm uncertain about reliability and future viability as a system).

Fortunately this gives me plenty of time to to let the dust settle on new offerings and not give in to GAS by ordering the Panasonic now.  

There is no way I can (or should) make the decision now, but just on features vs price-point the S1R is impossible to beat.  Obviously this also depends on what it's output looks like, and there is little if anything available on which to assess this at the moment.

 

 

[frame-it]

52 minutes ago, MarkP said:

 

I'm off to Patagonia/Antarctica in March 2020 and need to decide whether the SL is 'adequate'.  System options include keeping the SL, going to the SL2 or S1R, or dumping the SL and moving to mini-MF with an XD1 or GFX100R (which has tempted me for a little while).  I cannot possibly justify the price of a Leica S system (and I'm uncertain about reliability and future viability as a system).

 

 

https://fujifilmxgfx.com/gfx-interviews/dan-westergren-shoots-with-the-fujifilm-gfx-50s-in-antarctica/

[Ecaton]

I wonder whether the demographics of the shrinking number of serious camera gear owners and users were considered when engineering these new Pana/Leica bodies. Except for full time professionals, I am of the impression that the main customer base is rather 45+. Yet size and weight of bodies and lenses are going up and up.

[MarkP]

2 hours ago, frame-it said:

https://fujifilmxgfx.com/gfx-interviews/dan-westergren-shoots-with-the-fujifilm-gfx-50s-in-antarctica/

Very helpful. Thanks so much for that link!

[mls1483]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb jrp:

Why is this BSI rather than, eg, sensor glass thickness?

 

Sony A7R has an even thicjer sensor glass than Sony A7R2. Still pictures are nicer with the Noctilux.

The thick sensor stack may affect the light rays hitting the sensor in a steep angle, i.e. from the edge of a wide angle and ulta wide angle lenses. Above 35mm focal length there ar no problems with Leica M glass on Sony cameras (or from other manufacturers). The APO Summicron 50mm  even shines more on the Sony A7R2 than on the M. Fior the very special lens - the Noctilux 50mm - it is somehow different.

 

[Chaemono]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb mls1483:

The really interesting thing is - and nobody seems to take notice - the 47 MP sensor is NOT a BSI sensor. This was advertised as being crucial for high ISO performance (by Sony and its customers like Nikon). So let's see, how the S1R compares to the Nikon D850, Nikon Z7 or the Sony A7rIII.

Interesting. They better know what they’re doing because there will likely be extensive comparisons for DR and low light performance between the S1R, the α7R III, and the Z7 with the same lens (I have M lens adapters for all three mounts 😀) .

vor 16 Stunden schrieb mls1483:

Sure - larger pixl size.

And no OLPF. Well done. If the SL2 has the same sensor as the S1R, SL user can get the S1 for low light situations as a second body at an economically attractive price. Fantastic. 

vor 16 Stunden schrieb mls1483:

By the way, front side illuminated sensors make nicer pictures - to my opinion. The Noctilux is much better on the M or the SL (FSI) compared to the Sony A7RII or A7RIII (all BSI). In fact, even the A7R (front side illuminated)showed a nicer rendering with the Noctilux (still worse than M or SL). The Nikon Z and D850 I do not know (i.e. I cannot compared directly). So, this might be an intersting point for th S1R.

Or the SL2. We’ll see. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[thighslapper]

Well I'll certainly give the S1R  a go on day one ...... to see what exceptional Leica optics paired with IBIS, 47mpx and optional LNER produces ...... and a peek at the next SL2 EVF (which it clearly is on the S1R). 

If all is ok and the SL2 appears later with something similar I'll sell the S1R (or my old SL) ....... and upgrade ....... depending on how things turn out. Persisting or not with mandatory LNER will be the main deciding factor ..... 

Nothing compensates for optical excellence, so I'm sticking with Leica. 

47mpx is already twice what I need and gives plenty of leeway with cropping and printing ...... 100mpx for 'normal' photography is I suspect getting into territory where it causes more problems than the non-existent problems it purports to solve .....

MF is nice ..... and tempting ..... but again it comes down to lens variety, quality and compatibility for me...... and with a safe full of SL, TL, M and R lenses it makes no sense. 

Despite all the reviews, opinions and biased crap that appears about any new camera, the acid test is actually spending your own money and then using it daily trying to justify what you have squandered ...... it usually takes me a day to have suspicions ...... a few days to have doubts .... and if I am still using it after a week it is usually a keeper. Otherwise (like the Sony A7) I will have come to loathe it and the Sirens of eBay are calling 'sell me,.... sell me .....'  ....

Edited February 3, 2019 by thighslapper