90mm Leica M Suggestions

[RayD28]

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I might get a 90mm Leica lens and appreciate your suggestions. My initial criteria are: f2.8 or faster; small/light weight, and less than $1,500 used.  I looked for comparisons but only found Rockwell's sight and its not current.  Thanks in advance.

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[SiggiGun]

Hello 

I had the Tele-Elmarit f2.8/90mm in the pass (film camera...) and sold. Now I have the Apo-Summicron-M f2.0/90mm ASPH. and the Macro-Elmar-M f4.0/90mm. Booth lenses are great performer but very different in rendering, size and weight.

The macro is my general purpose tele and travel lens. Combinded with my other Elmar''s a very valuable combo. 24 + 28-35-50 + 90

https://www.flickr.com/gp/siggigun/2Vd7q3

 

I use the Apo-Summicron less in general, but it is a fine lens for landscape and portraits. I use it more now on the SL.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/siggigun/a025d9

 

According to Leica Rumors, Leica is working on a Summilux-M f.1.5/90mm ASPH.

[TomB_tx]

For Leica M I have a 2.8 "Fat" TeleElmarit that I bought in 1968, that has served me well. After I got an M9 I had the lens serviced, correcting a slight optical misalignment and calibrating focus, and it has been fine on digital since then. These are classic Leitz quality, available well below your limit used, especially in black (Chrome tend to be more expensive for this model). Out of curiosity I also bought a used 90 2.5 Summarit, which has faster focusing and handles well. It would also fit your budget. I'm very happy with both.

The bargain 90 is the Elmar-C (f4) which was originally sold for the film CL in the 1970s. I got one in excellent condition for around $200 US, and it gives lovely images, even wide open. People caution it may not focus accurately on an M model, but it is fine on both my M9 and M10. Its optical design is quite similar to the current Macro Elmar 90.

I also have a 90 Summicron-R from film Leicaflex use, and with adapters it does fine on digital (I use a Sony A7 for orphan lenses), and is also well under your budget. Of course, you can't use rangefinder focus with it, but it can work on the M10 with Live View or the 020 EVF. It does very nice for portraits.

[Jdphoto]

2 hours ago, RayD28 said:

I might get a 90mm Leica lens and appreciate your suggestions. My initial criteria are: f2.8 or faster; small/light weight, and less than $1,500 used.  I looked for comparisons but only found Rockwell's sight and its not current.  Thanks in advance.

Here's one...

https://www.mpb.com/en-us/search/?www-product-search=leica+90mm&www-department=all

[Peter Kilmister]

I love images produced by the 90mm f/2.5 Summarit. 

[dsj]

I currently own the first Elmarit 2.8 from the 60s but am not quite happy with it for its sensitivity to backlight glare. 

I tried a few 90s at Meister Camera in Hamburg recently and am planning to either get a Elmar-C 4.0, the small 90mm f/2.8 Tele-Elmarit-M or, most likely, the last Elmarit-M 2.8 90mm. This one is slightly bigger and heavier than the other two, but I am convinced it would be the last 90mm I'd ever want or need. 

 

[spydrxx]

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If you expand your criteria to f/4 you can easily get a top notch used Elmar 90/4 and still have plenty of cash left in your pocket. Lower contrast, flares without a hood,  but small and delivers well. It can also be used on a Visoflex if you like.  I've had all the others over many years and this is the one I always come back to

[Ronazle]

This is a soft of half-hearted reply but: if weight and size are not a big deal the earlier (not ASPH) F:2.0 Summicrons are often a very good buy.  An added capability is that the lens body can be removed from the focusing mount and used with the Visoflex. They sell in the $500 - $900 range. Regards, ron

[Mark II]

For pure image quality and flexibility I would opt for a Summicron f2, which should just about be in budget.

However, I opted for the 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M, mainly because I wanted a uniform 46mm filter size across all my lenses. The Elmarit is very sharp, well built and affordable. But it also prone to veiling flare. Were I to buy again I would look at either the current f2.4 Summarit or the Summicron.

[Narsuitus]

8 hours ago, RayD28 said:

I might get a 90mm Leica lens and appreciate your suggestions. My initial criteria are: f2.8 or faster; small/light weight, and less than $1,500 used.

I paid less than $1500 usd for a used 90mm f/2 Leitz Summicron.

It is great for general usage or reportage but does not focus close enough for me to capture a head and shoulder portrait of someone sitting across the table from me.

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90mm lens on right by Narsuitus, on Flickr

 

[CaseyS]

I picked up a 6 bit 90mm Elmarit-M last year.  You can find them reasonably priced for a little less than what you specified.  As Ken Rockwell’s review said, it is an extremely sharp lens.

 

[RayD28]

13 hours ago, SiggiGun said:

Hello 

I had the Tele-Elmarit f2.8/90mm in the pass (film camera...) and sold. Now I have the Apo-Summicron-M f2.0/90mm ASPH. and the Macro-Elmar-M f4.0/90mm. Booth lenses are great performer but very different in rendering, size and weight.

The macro is my general purpose tele and travel lens. Combinded with my other Elmar''s a very valuable combo. 24 + 28-35-50 + 90

https://www.flickr.com/gp/siggigun/2Vd7q3

 

I use the Apo-Summicron less in general, but it is a fine lens for landscape and portraits. I use it more now on the SL.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/siggigun/a025d9

 

According to Leica Rumors, Leica is working on a Summilux-M f.1.5/90mm ASPH.

Thanks for the post.  Was the Tele-Elmarit f2.8 model #11800?  That model is interesting because it fits what I'm looking for.  How was the rendering?  Contrast, sharpness?   Did you have problems with flare?  

Edited February 1, 2019 by RayD28

[oudjunk]

For me, i prefer the summicron 90 v3 pre asph, sharp enough and good bokeh from this lens.

[spydrxx]

Wide  open contrast is only medium, it needs to be stopped down to f/4-5.6, at which point it begins to equal the Elmarit-M. Fine detail, to me appeared somewhat soft at wider apertures, which is why I sold mine. The head isn't detachable for use on the Visoflex, which also made other models more attractive to me.

[luigi bertolotti]

90mm is such a classic and appreciable focal that anyone has is opinion  : taking seriously your basic requirements (aperture, size/wieght, cost) I'd say that there are two good alternatives, very different in "character" :

- Old Tele Elmarit 90 "fat" (which I have)

- Summarit 90 2,5 (which I haven't, but have its 75 brother)

Very "modern" the Summarit with high contrast and top sharpness, more classic and a bit soft wide open the T-E (also with no great resistance to flare) , but a perfect lens for portrait.

The Tele Elmarit has also the 2nd version ("thin"), which I haven't and costs a bit less, generally : I like more the "fat" in look and size, but probably rendering is quite similar. 

It's true that Summicrons of the '70s can be found in your right price range : but imho its larger size and consequen less easy Handling is justified only if you really want to USE f2, which is not an easy exercise in several situations.

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by luigi bertolotti

[SiggiGun]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb RayD28:

Thanks for the post.  Was the Tele-Elmarit f2.8 model #11800?  That model is interesting because it fits what I'm looking for.  How was the rendering?  Contrast, sharpness?   Did you have problems with flare?  

Honestly, I don't remember. It is 20 years ago,... But all the older lenses I have, have much less contrast then modern ASPH. lenses. Also if you use f5.6, even with older lenses sharpness is OK. 

[adan]

At the moment I'm not the best adviser on Leica M 90s, since I spent the last 9 months trying out most of them post-1970, and they all left me grumpy and dissatisfied in one way or another. For the record I currently have the 11800 "thin" TE and the "90-v.3-on-steroids" 75 f/1.4.

Ruled out by your specs as too slow, too heavy or too pricey (often in combination): 90 APO f/2, 90 macro f/4, older 90 C for the 1970s film CL (of which I tried 2 and they both were weak on resolution anyway). You just might find a beater 20-year-old 90 APO for close to your budget, though. I have simply never bothered with the original "stovepipe" 90 'crons - far too big and heavy for an M body (my 135 is smaller and lighter!) and with weird "backwards" aperture rings on many.

Best overall IMHO - 1980 90 Summicron v. III, 11136. 475g - you can cheat that down to about 440g (same as a 75 APO) by looking for one from the first year or so of production, which was a tad less bulky/heavy by way of having the lens hood slide right back over the aperture ring when retracted and other mechanical differences. That version had E49 filter threads, later production grew to E55.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2_Summicron-M_III

Imaging: fair amount of long. CA - (purple and green, especially in "front" bokeh blurs.) Fades away with stopping down. "Soft-sharp" at f/2, but quite sharp stopped down. A bit muddy in contrast compared to today's lenses - but that can be a good thing on digital. Classic "Mandler/Canada" greener color tint than today pinker lenses. But flares a lot less than the 11800.

Absolute best resolution for the bucks (by my many trials) - Tele-Elmarit-M (thin, 11800). But yeah, they always have flare issues. Internal barrel reflections from lights just outside the frame. Color is 1980s Mandler - but the residual flare (even when not noticable otherwise) tends to tint the picture with whatever color is dominant in and around the scene (coolish if there's lots of sky, warmish if there are lots of bricks or yellow stuff (see below), etc.)

Absolute smallest size/weight - also TEM 11800, f/2.8 and just 225g. Amazing just 4 thin pieces of glass produce this much detail vvvvvvv

90 TEM 11800 between f4 and f/5.6, M10 (just this week, as it happens). And APO-Summicron will probably match or exceed it, but not for $650 and in 225g.

Just be really, really careful if there are bright spotlights, the sun, or windows anywhere near the outside of the frame!!

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The Tele-Elmarit "fat" is heavier and larger, and a bit duller than the "thin" - and the corners never get really sharp. But will equal the TEM resolution over most of the frame, stopped down an extra stop. And flares less at all times. About half that I've tried over the years had sticky (even almost unmoveable) focus rings.

Elmarit-M 11807: For me, this has always been the poster-child for "MTF over actual resolution" - a lot of snap and crispness and contrast, but when I look close, just never captures the fine hairs and textures like the TEM (above). Its color is also a bit pink for my taste - but that means it mixes in well with today's Solms/Wetzlar II lenses. Tried one again a month ago - one shoot was enough to remind me of why I don't like it. Returned.

Summarit 90 f/2.4-2.5: Not anything like the 75 Summarit - completely different design approach and character. The 90 Summarit is essentially a recycling of the 90 Summicron v.3 5-element design mentioned above, with 1/2-1/3rd stop knocked off, and a bit more modern color. A mix of the imaging characteristics of the v3. cron and the Elmarit-M, combined with an extremely short 90° focus throw (too short and light a touch for focusing a 90mm reliably). The 2.4 does offer somewhat closer focusing - but I got more flare from the 2.4, probably due to the revised barrel construction to allow the closer focus. If you must, I'd say the f/2.5 version handled slightly better (less focus range for the same focus throw = slightly better precision) - but I still moved on.

I might just mention the Voigtlander 90 APO-Lanthar f/3.5. Extremely good APO imaging that would easily match my TE sample above. But it just misses your aperture cutoff, and came only in screw-mount (and, interestingly, in Nikon and EOS SLR mounts!), thus needs an adapter ring for M use. Ergonomically, a cross between the two versions of the Tele-Elmarits - 275g and 39mm filter thread.

If you can possibly stomach a 75, the 75 Summarit is a completely different lens than the 90 Summarit. Possibly the best resolution of any Leica-M tele ever, at least wide-open. But has the same short focus throw - I found if I even breathed while holding the focus ring, it would shift enough to miss focus wide-open. The f/2.5 will be well within your budget, the f/2.4 more expensive (but will focus closer).

I desperately wish Leica made a 90 as good as the 75 Summarit or ($$$) 75 Summicron - but they don't. So I use the TEM 11800, for the weight and IQ (minus flare) -  and my "Super90" 75 f/1.4 - world's most beautiful bokeh (if one cares), tighter close-ups than any 90 except the Macro, long precise focus throw.

But obviously misses your marks by huge amounts - weight (590g - *cough*) and price $3500-$4000 minimum these days (*cough-cough-cough!*)

BTW, the 90 Summicron v.3 1980 can be considered the "poor man's 75/80 Summilux". Very smooth bokeh (just not quite as much), a "portraity" lens wide-open and quite sharp stopped down. Similar color and color aberrations. Designed virtually the same year by the same designer.

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by adan

[Bo-Sixten]

Adan, there is always so much to learn from your inputs and analysis. I really like your posts. Thanks. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[RayD28]

3 hours ago, adan said:

At the moment I'm not the best adviser on Leica M 90s, since I spent the last 9 months trying out most of them post-1970, and they all left me grumpy and dissatisfied in one way or another. For the record I currently have the 11800 "thin" TE and the "90-v.3-on-steroids" 75 f/1.4.

Ruled out by your specs as too slow, too heavy or too pricey (often in combination): 90 APO f/2, 90 macro f/4, older 90 C for the 1970s film CL (of which I tried 2 and they both were weak on resolution anyway). You just might find a beater 20-year-old 90 APO for close to your budget, though. I have simply never bothered with the original "stovepipe" 90 'crons - far too big and heavy for an M body (my 135 is smaller and lighter!) and with weird "backwards" aperture rings on many.

Best overall IMHO - 1980 90 Summicron v. III, 11136. 475g - you can cheat that down to about 440g (same as a 75 APO) by looking for one from the first year or so of production, which was a tad less bulky/heavy by way of having the lens hood slide right back over the aperture ring when retracted and other mechanical differences. That version had E49 filter threads, later production grew to E55.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2_Summicron-M_III

Imaging: fair amount of long. CA - (purple and green, especially in "front" bokeh blurs.) Fades away with stopping down. "Soft-sharp" at f/2, but quite sharp stopped down. A bit muddy in contrast compared to today's lenses - but that can be a good thing on digital. Classic "Mandler/Canada" greener color tint than today pinker lenses. But flares a lot less than the 11800.

Absolute best resolution for the bucks (by my many trials) - Tele-Elmarit-M (thin, 11800). But yeah, they always have flare issues. Internal barrel reflections from lights just outside the frame. Color is 1980s Mandler - but the residual flare (even when not noticable otherwise) tends to tint the picture with whatever color is dominant in and around the scene (coolish if there's lots of sky, warmish if there are lots of bricks or yellow stuff (see below), etc.)

Absolute smallest size/weight - also TEM 11800, f/2.8 and just 225g. Amazing just 4 thin pieces of glass produce this much detail vvvvvvv

90 TEM 11800 between f4 and f/5.6, M10 (just this week, as it happens). And APO-Summicron will probably match or exceed it, but not for $650 and in 225g.

Just be really, really careful if there are bright spotlights, the sun, or windows anywhere near the outside of the frame!!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The Tele-Elmarit "fat" is heavier and larger, and a bit duller than the "thin" - and the corners never get really sharp. But will equal the TEM resolution over most of the frame, stopped down an extra stop. And flares less at all times. About half that I've tried over the years had sticky (even almost unmoveable) focus rings.

Elmarit-M 11807: For me, this has always been the poster-child for "MTF over actual resolution" - a lot of snap and crispness and contrast, but when I look close, just never captures the fine hairs and textures like the TEM (above). Its color is also a bit pink for my taste - but that means it mixes in well with today's Solms/Wetzlar II lenses. Tried one again a month ago - one shoot was enough to remind me of why I don't like it. Returned.

Summarit 90 f/2.4-2.5: Not anything like the 75 Summarit - completely different design approach and character. The 90 Summarit is essentially a recycling of the 90 Summicron v.3 5-element design mentioned above, with 1/2-1/3rd stop knocked off, and a bit more modern color. A mix of the imaging characteristics of the v3. cron and the Elmarit-M, combined with an extremely short 90° focus throw (too short and light a touch for focusing a 90mm reliably). The 2.4 does offer somewhat closer focusing - but I got more flare from the 2.4, probably due to the revised barrel construction to allow the closer focus. If you must, I'd say the f/2.5 version handled slightly better (less focus range for the same focus throw = slightly better precision) - but I still moved on.

I might just mention the Voigtlander 90 APO-Lanthar f/3.5. Extremely good APO imaging that would easily match my TE sample above. But it just misses your aperture cutoff, and came only in screw-mount (and, interestingly, in Nikon and EOS SLR mounts!), thus needs an adapter ring for M use. Ergonomically, a cross between the two versions of the Tele-Elmarits - 275g and 39mm filter thread.

If you can possibly stomach a 75, the 75 Summarit is a completely different lens than the 90 Summarit. Possibly the best resolution of any Leica-M tele ever, at least wide-open. But has the same short focus throw - I found if I even breathed while holding the focus ring, it would shift enough to miss focus wide-open. The f/2.5 will be well within your budget, the f/2.4 more expensive (but will focus closer).

I desperately wish Leica made a 90 as good as the 75 Summarit or ($$$) 75 Summicron - but they don't. So I use the TEM 11800, for the weight and IQ (minus flare) -  and my "Super90" 75 f/1.4 - world's most beautiful bokeh (if one cares), tighter close-ups than any 90 except the Macro, long precise focus throw.

But obviously misses your marks by huge amounts - weight (590g - *cough*) and price $3500-$4000 minimum these days (*cough-cough-cough!*)

BTW, the 90 Summicron v.3 1980 can be considered the "poor man's 75/80 Summilux". Very smooth bokeh (just not quite as much), a "portraity" lens wide-open and quite sharp stopped down. Similar color and color aberrations. Designed virtually the same year by the same designer.

 

Thanks, Adan.  Your posts are indeed always informative.  Regarding the 11800, is flare still a problem even when using the standard hood?.  

The 11800 sounds like just what I want (less the flare problem) because of weight and filter size.  I'm building a "down-sized" (i.e., light weight ) kit -- 28 2.8 ASPH, 50 2.0 (made in 1984), and an undetermined 90MM.  

BTW, I'm assuming your photo with the redline is to show an example of flare but my inexperienced eye just can't see it.  Is the flare on the store front or on the grate in the foreground?

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by RayD28

[lct]

23 hours ago, RayD28 said:

I might get a 90mm Leica lens and appreciate your suggestions. My initial criteria are: f2.8 or faster; small/light weight, and less than $1,500 used.  I looked for comparisons but only found Rockwell's sight and its not current.  Thanks in advance.

From f/2 to f/2.8 and less than $1,500 the choice is rather limited. Among my own copies, my favorites would be:

1. Elmarit-M 90/2.8 # 11807: A bit soft at f/2.8 but plenty sharp above. No significant flaw. Built like a tank.

2. Summarit-M 90/2.4 # 11684:  A bit more acutance than the 90/2.8 above, especially at f/2.8. No significant flaw but the lens is a bit soft at corners below f/5.6. Hard to find at $1,500 but the previous 90/2.5 (# 11685) has the same optical qualities AFAIK. I have no experience with it though

3. Summicron-M 90/2 # 11123: Almost perfect but bulky.

4. Summicron-M 90/2 # 11136: Similar rendering as Elmarit above, a bit soft at f/2 which is fine for portraits, but much CA.

5. Tele-Elmarit-M "thin" 90/2.8 # 11800: The most compact 90/2.8. Similar rendering as Elmarit but flare prone when light sources are outside the frame. 

FWIW