When will S3 be available? {merged}

[hoppyman]

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On 1/26/2019 at 7:53 AM, ZHNL said:

Does anybody heard anything about it? And price?

I’d like to know other than 64M better color sensor, what else we Leica S user will have?

a few features I can think of:

Sensor dust auto clean (better to have)

no forced noise reduction (must)

no long exposure limitation at least not less than 120S (must)

maybe smaller raw file option (nice to have)

AF fine tune (must)

AF speed and accuracy(must)

Any information is welcome. 

If the camera is in Beta testing anyone involved would be subject to an NDA. The only information would be from handling experiences at Photokina or demonstrations perhaps by Leica representatives. I think with prototype samples no files can be saved or taken away. That’s been the case in the past at least..

i would speculate that the camera is nearly in final form (assuming it is in beta test) and that it is unlikely any physical changes to the design or additional features from firmware would be incorporated into initial production at least.

i don’t think anything on your feature wanted list was mentioned when the camera was announced.

The prices mentioned in discussions are entirely speculative until actual stock is on dealer shelves. My speculation would be that the S3 is unlikely to be cheaper than the S ( Typ 007) and not aimed to compete with the Hasselblad and Fujifilm mirrorless systems

Edited January 26, 2019 by hoppyman

[ropo54]

Photokina 2018- The Leica S3 | Red Dot Forum.webloc

[Martin K]

No doubt the Leica S3 will be marketed in the not too distant future. It has to be, otherwise Leica may lose too many of their current customer base to other medium format companies such as Fuji, Hasselblad or Phase One and will find it difficult to gain new ones. The argument that 37MP is enough for most purposes is moot, the competition offers more (disregarding price levels for the moment). The more interesting question is what Leica’s strategy could be going forward? A few thoughts (my own):

• Canon’s chief executive has stated in a recent interview that camera sales are going to halve in the next few years, he is talking about two years. Will that also apply to the medium format sector or has that been given some momentum by Hasselblad and Fuji to remain stable for a bit longer?

• How much of the Leica S user base has moved to Hasselblad and/or Fuji or even to the new generation mirrorless cameras of Nikon and Canon? How much have sales of the Leica S diminished in the past 12 months? These types of numbers are probably not public knowledge and any guesses could be out by miles. Leica did mention when the Leica S was announced that they were looking for 10% of the then medium format market. What would their % be now?

• To move to mirrorless is clearly noticeable in medium format, e.g. Hasselblad and Fuji. Will Leica remain locked into their DSLR concept for the S-series? Or will they use the Sinar brand to develop and market a mirrorless medium format camera which could use the Leica S lenses with adapter, but which would have its own Sinar lenses – obviously designed by Leica? The manufacturer of such high-quality lenses could be Leica if they have the capacity (probably not given their current focus on the SL lenses), Rodenstock maybe, or a Japanese independent? Maybe even Sigma, now that they are part of the L-alliance? Sinar modules that use Leica S lenses and sensor are available, but putting them all together looks rather clunky. I am thinking about something similar to the Hasselblad X1D and Fuji GFX ranges to remain competitive.

All of this has to be seen in relation to the future strategies for the M-series and SL-series. I believe Leica will “milk” the M-series for what it is worth, but I do not expect to see major developments here, only small incremental tweaks to keep the interest going. For the SL series Leica has gained a bit of breathing space through the L-alliance. But, and this is a big but, Leica will have to perform in the SL series, otherwise Panasonic and Sigma will run with the market and Leica may be left behind. Whether the L-alliance cameras will be able to compete in the market against Canon, Nikon and Sony is another known unknown at this point. If the Canon CEO’s prediction of half the market in two years is even remotely true, we will see a lot of “blood-letting” in the market in the next few years.

For a medium-sized German company these are major strategic challenges. It will be interesting to see how Leica positions itself in the next few months, even if we can only deduce this from Leica’s marketing performance, less so from any official communications.

[tom0511]

I think Leica should give their customers a little more information about their future plans. The Leica SL viewfinder is still ahead of Fuji and Hassy, and lets not forget that Hassy premium medium format cameras are mirror reflex. I guess there is a reason for that.

 

[erlingmm]

I know nothing about the future of the SL, but given that Panasonic and Leica are closely associated, now even in the L alliance, and Panasonic has announced a 47 mpix full frame camera, what would your guess be for the eventual SL2?

It is marketing 101 that you cannot disclose new models too early - this will only stop sales of the current models (and notify the competition). Of course unless you are REALLY behind, and try to stop brand followers to jump ship.

Edited January 28, 2019 by erlingmm
typo

[Agent M10]

22 hours ago, Martin K said:

To move to mirrorless is clearly noticeable in medium format, e.g. Hasselblad and Fuji. Will Leica remain locked into their DSLR concept for the S-series? Or will they use the Sinar brand to develop and market a mirrorless medium format camera which could use the Leica S lenses with adapter, but which would have its own Sinar lenses – obviously designed by Leica? The manufacturer of such high-quality lenses could be Leica if they have the capacity (probably not given their current focus on the SL lenses), Rodenstock maybe, or a Japanese independent? Maybe even Sigma, now that they are part of the L-alliance? Sinar modules that use Leica S lenses and sensor are available, but putting them all together looks rather clunky. I am thinking about something similar to the Hasselblad X1D and Fuji GFX ranges to remain competitive.

Development of a whole new set of MF lenses to basically take out the flange distance would be hugely expensive. And for what? Just to take out the mirror? I have an S 007 and love it, but I don't see too much coming after the S3. I don't know that smaller MF has that much to offer over and above the higher MP FFs like the Panasonic. With FF you're able to get 0.95, 1.4, and 2.0 lenses. With the smaller MF, you can get a 1.9 or 2.0 in around the 80mm to 100mm range, but everything is higher. Leica was keenly innovative with the S2, but it may be that technology has now leaped ahead of the system's design.

[BernardC]

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2 hours ago, Agent M10 said:

Development of a whole new set of MF lenses to basically take out the flange distance would be hugely expensive. And for what? Just to take out the mirror?

I agree with that. People often suggest that Leica should do the exact same thing as everyone else, but that rarely works-out, does it?

I also love the S, it is a unique offer within the very small medium format market: a very fast, rugged, and portable camera with a great viewfinder. I don't think they need to change much: maybe the pricing, post-purchase support, and a new sensor every few years.

Unlike you, I think they are in a sustainable niche. SLRs aren't going to disappear, just like rangefinders haven't disappeared.

[Stuart Richardson]

Agent M10 speaks pretty well to my fears. I fear that the S3 is an attempt to suck out as much remaining revenue from S users as possible and give them one last camera before they end the system and roll it back into the SL line. Medium format was an experiment for Leica, one which has had mixed results -- in many ways it is a superb system, but I think the market for MF has changed dramatically. Keep in mind that when the S2 was developed and released, all MF was extremely expensive, bulky and unwieldy, and the highest resolution 35mm cameras were 24mp...it was before even the D800. Then it fit very well into a niche -- priced high in the way they always wanted to price the R cameras and lenses, but with real, sizeable advantages over the 35mm competitors while being far more usable than MF cameras of the time. The system is largely unchanged in philosophy, image quality and basic handling than it was when it was released. Of course, the interface improved, and you got nice things like faster handling, better ISO, live view and video, but fundamentally the bread and butter of the camera is unchanged for the last ten years. (37mp the whole time, same lenses, same basic handling and camera shape, function ergonomics etc). I feel like Leica got caught out by the rise of high resolution 35mm and mirrorless MF, so now a lot of the unique advantages the S brought are no longer unique, and it is probably difficult for them to sell it at a greatly reduced price point to bring it closer in line to its competitors. So I suspect the S3 will be priced over 20,000 dollars still, almost no one who is not already in the S system will buy it, and they will unceremoniously discontinue it about 3 years after it gets to market. They might throw another accessory at us (tele-converter or extension tubes please!), but I think that will be the end of it. 

I hope I am wrong! But I have danced this dance before with the DMR...

[Jeff S]

Ditto.... which is why I wrote earlier that the only thing that would give me more optimism for continuation of the system would be another native lens or two.  And I agree that S3 prices might be the next clue. 

Jeff

[frame-it]

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1436753-REG/leica_s3_medium_format_dslr.html

[ynp]

9 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

So I suspect the S3 will be priced over 20,000 dollars still, almost no one who is not already in the S system will buy it, and they will unceremoniously discontinue it about 3 years after it gets to market.

The S will not be the first my system to be abandoned by a  manufacturer. It’s the fate of all of us who buys something not mainstream. My Contax 645, Rollei 6008, Sinar-M and Sinar HY6 were abandoned and left unsupported. The only supported system camera I have had and used is my Leica -M. 

If Leica price the S3 too high, I will be thinking of an exit strategy.

[ynp]

13 hours ago, Agent M10 said:

Development of a whole new set of MF lenses to basically take out the flange distance would be hugely expensive. And for what? Just to take out the mirror? I have an S 007 and love it, but I don't see too much coming after the S3.

After having tested the Fuji GFX 50r, I realized that I love the optical viewfinder very  much. My layman’ view is very simple. Add a hybrid viewfinder to the S and add an multi area autofocus and the S will be competitive again. And unique.

[xiaubauu2009]

20 hours ago, ynp said:

After having tested the Fuji GFX 50r, I realized that I love the optical viewfinder very  much. My layman’ view is very simple. Add a hybrid viewfinder to the S and add an multi area autofocus and the S will be competitive again. And unique.

Optical viewfinder is unique and good!

Reliability and electronics and software need more improvement. S is not bad. And Leica Color profile is very very unique.

[hoppyman]

On 1/30/2019 at 5:44 PM, ynp said:

The S will not be the first my system to be abandoned by a  manufacturer. It’s the fate of all of us who buys something not mainstream. My Contax 645, Rollei 6008, Sinar-M and Sinar HY6 were abandoned and left unsupported. The only supported system camera I have had and used is my Leica -M. 

If Leica price the S3 too high, I will be thinking of an exit strategy.

Maybe don't write off the S3 as abandoned before it even gets to market????

[alan.y]

I am still curious if anyone knows the S3's performance as a video camera. If it really does decent 4K (without the 007's circa-2009 aliasing and ridiculous rolling shutter artifacts, and with better compression and parameters), it can distinguish itself from the competition in this way and tap into a whole other market. I doubt the 100MP Sony sensor in the upcoming Fuji will be good for video, even though IBIS is great.

 

 

[ynp]

4 hours ago, hoppyman said:

Maybe don't write off the S3 as abandoned before it even gets to market????

I hope you are right and we see will some signs of further development:  the new 55 mm lens and any other lens added to the line, reliable tethering to computers, focus bracketing, multi area autofocus and better live view. Leica own Sinar’s assets and I will be looking for signs of the two companies integration. After that I will believe that that the system has a future. 

Right now I believe that Leica have stopped the development of the S lens line. Maybe they will bring a mirrorless MF solution and intend to let us use our S lenses with an adapter. Who knows.

That’s why I think about my exit strategy. Most probably it will be a second Leica S body (007), several new batteries and I already bought the AC adapter. I plan to send my lenses to Leica to update my lenses. That’s a way I kept my Rollei 6008af running after the manufacturer died. My p20 DB20 Phase One 16 mpx back works better and better with every new version of CaptureOne. That I call long term support  from a manufacturer. 

Maybe I am too pessimistic. Prove that I am wrong...

 

[alan.y]

15 minutes ago, ynp said:

That’s why I think about my exit strategy. Most probably it will be a second Leica S body (007), several new batteries and I already bought the AC adapter. I plan to send my lenses to Leica to update my lenses. That’s a way I kept my Rollei 6008af running after the manufacturer died. My p20 DB20 Phase One 16 mpx back works better and better with every new version of CaptureOne. That I call long term support  from a manufacturer. 

I think you caused some confusion here by calling this an "exit strategy"--it's actually the exact opposite. Or rather it's a strategy to deal with Leica's exit, not yours.

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by alan.y

[ynp]

19 minutes ago, alan.y said:

I think you caused some confusion here by calling this an "exit strategy"--it's actually the exact opposite. Or rather it's a strategy to deal with Leica's exit, not yours.

 

Sorry for the confusion. It is my exit strategy. Exit from the constant upgrade path . 

I already know that I will keep an S (my S2P or a new 007), my Leica M9 and CL. I do not plan to return to the SL.

I want to keep the best OVF camera, the S and I will keep it. It does not mean that I will not buy a new MFD System to use alongside my S (a complicated exit strategy). It shall be able to tether reliably,  have a good strobe and flash support, allow me to operate the camera remotely and have a nice line of lenses and not that heavy. Maybe I will find something to satisfy me outside the Leica world. I have time to decide what to do.  . 

 

[Photoskeptic]

With what’s been announced by the competition and the new Panasonic (potential Leica SL2?) methinks the S3 will be stillborn. Those beta samples, if they exist, could become real collector items. 

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[Stuart Richardson]

Well, the good news is that it seems to be the same body as the S007, only with a new sensor and electronic guts. I am not sure this is the case, but it was the impression I got. If so, that would mean that Leica's production would probably not be too difficult, compared to introducing a whole new camera. Given that is the case, I do not doubt that the S3 will come to market and they will sell some to those of us who are heavily invested in the system. Whether there is an S4 is another story...