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glenerrolrd

Are M lenses really interchangable?

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Surely, if it's such a problem, you may get lenses matched to one M8 body, but not the other... You would need to send both bodies and all your lenses away so that, not only are the lenses matched to the cameras, but both bodies are matched to each other too.

 

Otherwise, some lenses will be matched to body 1, and some to body 2

 

Agree and that is totally ridiculous. Then if in one year or 4-10 years I buy a new lens I would need to send that lens off WITH both bodies, again for god knows how long, to have that lens calibrated to the 2 bodies.

That is just totally unaccectable. There has to be, MUST be, a way to get a M8 to work with any properly adjusted lens.

 

The real funny part in all this is I don't see owners of CV and Ziess lenses posting this type of thread. It seems only Leica, the maker of the camera, can't get there own lenses to work properly on there cameras.

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Ed - it is all a matter of individual experience...I personally have used a rather large number of lenses on two M8 bodies - and the score is : Focussed correctly: 18 misfocussed: 0 -and I habitually used large apertures, and I do believe I recognize an out of focus photograph. So maybe the word hogwash is a bit strong. It might be better to say - one can get unlucky - but so can one buying a 10.000+ Euro Canon or Nikon or Hasselblad or whatever combination. Read the relevant forums..... The only things showing relatively few focus issues are small-sensor P&S cameras - but there one has DOF from the tip of ones nose to infinity.

Not that I would not be just as annoyed as you are.....

 

Then please tell me why the results are the same on both cameras, one bought from B&H and the other a replacement from Leica NJ, and that my luck with lenses it running real bad.

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My brand new 50/1.4asph needed to be calibrated for the M8.

My 28/2.0asph and 35/1.4asph had to be calibrated, the 35/1.4 still does not focus spot on.

My used 75/1.4, 90/2.8 work fine, my 135/3.4 doesnt.

My brand new 24/2.8, 90Macro and Trielmar all work very good.

 

I would say with each new lens you buy you have the risk that it needs to be sent in for calibration. I dont know if the risk is 10%, 30% or 50%, but its there.

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Ed,I don't know and it should be sorted. I realize it is cold comfort to know that your problems are the exception rather than the rule. I would be hopping mad too. Come to think of it I would probably drive down to Solms and drop the whole mess on their counter. It is just that I seem to have won a lottery...And my cousin-and about six other M8 owners I know.....

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Just to add another experience:

 

The rangefinder of my M8 had to be calibrated. Leica admitted that it was off before. Now they say everything lies in the middle of tolerances what should be the case.

 

Lenses that focus perfect now: 2,8/24, 1,4/35 ASPH, 2/40 (!), 1,4/50 non ASPH, 2/75, 2/90 ASPH, 3,4/135, 16-18-21, 28-35-50.

 

Lenses that need adjustment: 1,/50 ASPH (very slightly), 2/28 (front focusing at short distances), 1/50 (ca. 15 cm backfocusing at 3m), 1,4/75 (ca. 15 cm backfocusing at 3m).

 

So I am sure there is a problem with lenses that maybe has been before but we did not see for the already discussed reasons. I will have my misfocusing lenses adjusted and hope that they will work after that.

 

But I am a bit shy to have the pefect focusing lenses coded (the 16-18-21 is coded) because they might not focus properly after coding (i.e. changig rear bayonet) and then the hassle starts again. The saying "Never change a running system" comes to my mind.

 

Joachim

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....It seems only Leica, the maker of the camera, can't get there own lenses to work properly on there cameras.

We R-D1 owners have had the same kind of problem in 2004/2005 when we thought that some or our lenses were back or front focusing then.

In fact it just came fom the camera in most cases.

A soon as i've got my bodies calibrated all my old and new Leica lenses became suddenly spot on.

Now when i say spot on i mean reasonably so as focus accuracy is never perfect with a rangefinder needless to say.

Suffice it to get results you like in practice, forget those rulers showing that you've lost one or 2 millimeters accuracy if i may give you an advice folks.

Perhaps some of you are somewhat pixel peeping too much no?

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Now to be honest i haven't sent any of my lenses in for coding so far.

I don't need it for my Epson's but anyway i won't do it as long as i'm not sure if Leica test each lens individually after they change the mount.

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When my Asph 21 came back from Solms, I made at once a focus test (not too scinetific, I posted the pics together the same from other 21s...) : pefect, from what I saw... and from all the other lenses I have, the only with a clear OOF isue were a Summaron 28 2,8 and, very little, a very first Lux 35.

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Ed does have a point, in that no one is guaranteed a trouble-free experience, as stated by Howard. On the other hand, most lenses seem to work with most cameras, most of the time. Perhaps it would be more prudent to say that most people will only have minor problems, and most of those problems will be solvable. It may require a trip or two to Solms, but most people are happy. On the other hand, as Ed, Tim and others have experienced, not all problems are solvable, and it is even possible to have problems with several cameras and most of your lenses. Anyone looking to buy until Leica gets this under control should be prepared for some hassle.

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Let me take exception to the comments that most M8s are properly calibrated and that most M8 users are happy with the accuracy of focus. On the Leica trip this summer we had 7-8 users with 2 M8 s each . After plenty of time to discuss this over 10 days together ..(1)at least half the cameras had some degree of focus error requiring adjustment(2) only a few owners had actually tested their cameras ...most assumed that they just missed the focus . Camera focus errors were all small ..enough to really bother you with a 75 1.4 or a Noctilux but not a problem with a 24 2.8 . A few cameras would not focus to infinity and at least 2 did not have proper verticle alignment. It was also obvious that photographers were adjusting to their equipment. Lux lenses were being used at 2.8 to 4 not wide open even at twilight . Backfocusing adjustments were changing the point of focus."'I focus on the bridge of the nose not the front eye". These camera/lenses were not properly calibrated but the photographers adjusted to take sharp images . I even had one photographer take a few shots with my camera(which was definately out and replaced by Leica) and a Noctilux at 1.0 ..he pronounced it dead on! After I ask him to look for infinity focus and some back focusing ..it was "Oh I see it now this is way off" . This is not to say that some complaints are not overstated and only in the eye of the beholder. This in itself should be disappointing enough. But the lens could be off as well ...I have 9 lenses to work with and 2 bodies . Both of my bodies were off..but they now are exactly the same ...this is good news . 5 of the 9 lenses are within 2cm at 4ft ..thats right on from my standpoint ..at least as good as my ability to focus ....all of these 5 have 6 bit coding..they are either new or back from Leica service. Two others are within 10cm probably good enough for the 28 and 50 summicrons. Unfortunately the 50 and 75 Luxs are 40cm back focus at 4 ft this is too much to shoot close focus portraits wide open. Non of these 4 lenses have been in for service or 6 bit coding. I will tomorrow test all these lenses on two other M8s . I am sure that I am closing in on my problem....some adjustments to the two Lux s and my system should be useable. Draw you own conclusions on what these means for you existing lenses.

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... And the cost of calibrating the lens is? Let's say I haev more than 10 M lens

 

Since some of the lens are out warranty.

 

... Will it still work with the film M cameras? ... and the cost to recalibrate the film M? Let's say I have a few film M.

 

Since most of my Ms are out of warranty.

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Roger--

My understanding of your post on the Akademie trip: A number of cameras were mis-adjusted. A number of their users hadn't bothered to check the cameras and assumed the errors were their own. A number of other users never opened up their lenses far enough to see whether the lens and camera were in alignment.

 

I believe all that.

 

Could you say about how many of these people were 'early adopters' of the M8?

 

The focus problems and the rangefinder problems seem to have surfaced gradually, and only after the green blobs, SDS etc.

 

I have no way to know, but my guess is that today's M8 is less likely to show these initial defects than the early ones.

 

I'm glad you started this thread because it brings important issues to the fore, and from what Carsten/Holger, Leica seems to have acknowledged that some older testing procedures are inadequate to the M8.

 

It's because of that progression in awareness that I think today's purchasers can generally expect the bodies and lenses to work together without problem--that is, after all, why this is the M8 and not, say, the D1.

 

For Ed to say based on his experience that M bodies and lenses aren't likely to match up, or for me to say based on mine that they are is mere generalization.

 

--HC

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Roger--

My understanding of your post on the Akademie trip: A number of cameras were mis-adjusted. A number of their users hadn't bothered to check the cameras and assumed the errors were their own. A number of other users never opened up their lenses far enough to see whether the lens and camera were in alignment.

 

I believe all that.

 

Could you say about how many of these people were 'early adopters' of the M8?

 

The focus problems and the rangefinder problems seem to have surfaced gradually, and only after the green blobs, SDS etc.

 

I have no way to know, but my guess is that today's M8 is less likely to show these initial defects than the early ones.

 

I'm glad you started this thread because it brings important issues to the fore, and from what Carsten/Holger, Leica seems to have acknowledged that some older testing procedures are inadequate to the M8.

 

It's because of that progression in awareness that I think today's purchasers can generally expect the bodies and lenses to work together without problem--that is, after all, why this is the M8 and not, say, the D1.

 

For Ed to say based on his experience that M bodies and lenses aren't likely to match up, or for me to say based on mine that they are is mere generalization.

 

--HC

 

No not really. Both my M8 are Serial #'s 3150xxx and 3108xxx. I wouldn't call either of mine early units.

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... And the cost of calibrating the lens is?

... Will it still work with the film M cameras? ... and the cost to recalibrate the film M?

Robert--

Far be it from me to try to predict a Leica repair price!

 

First, as I've said numerous times, it is IMHO highly unlikely that you will need to have any lens re-calibrated.

 

Second, it is _possible_ that if it's merely a focus adjustment to match a lens to a new M8 body, Leica may handle it at no charge.

 

Third, if the lens needs additional work--cleaning, focus mount relubrication, etc--they'll send you an estimate. They much prefer to do everything a product needs while they have it on the bench, but if you tell them you only want focus adjusted, they can estimate that procedure and give you the opportunity to approve.

 

Fourth, all M lenses are designed to work with all M bodies. That is: If you are using the lenses with the bodies now, the tiny adjustment that might be made to the lens would not reduce its performance with your film bodies, but if anything would improve its performance.

 

Fifth, remember that before the M8 there was never a complaint that not all lenses work with all bodies. (There were certainly cases where a body or a lens needed adjustment, but it was never a general outcry.) The current discussion has to do with the difference between film and a digital sensor. Thus, again (point 4), if a lens works with an M8, it will work with other M's as well.

 

Sixth, Leica will send you an estimate before working on any camera body. Again, they want to bring the camera back to like-new tolerances. It will not be inexpensive, but you'll be getting a fully functional body. If you're using the camera today, you may decide that improving on its current level of functionality is unnecessary.

 

--HC

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I would say with each new lens you buy you have the risk that it needs to be sent in for calibration. I dont know if the risk is 10%, 30% or 50%, but its there.

Thomas--

Yes, there is that risk. But as you said, none of us knows what the risk of error is. My guess is that in general it is quite low, but possibly higher with some specific lenses.

 

That's the problem with threads like this; they raise a lot of dust but often shed no light on the situation.

 

It seems to me that at at some point, Leica became a bit sloppy in lens assembly.

 

--HC

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... The [M8] rangefinder is different from previous models and requires something like 6 points to be adjusted....

 

... I was told that they do not have a jig that can accommodate the different size of the M8 compared to other M bodies....

 

Thanks to you both. I should have thought of the larger size of the M8. And with the tightened tolerances of the M8, it wouldn't surprise me if there are additional focus points.

 

--HC

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Could you say about how many of these people were 'early adopters' of the M8?

I'm glad you started this thread because it brings important issues to the fore, and from what Carsten/Holger, Leica seems to have acknowledged that some older testing procedures are inadequate to the M8.

--HC

 

In my case: yes, it was the first item sold in Berlin on Novemer 1rst.

 

Best

Holger

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Howard... THX for trying to put my mind at ease. I really appreciate it. No Kidding. It is just that we waited a long time for the M8 and now that it is here for 8 months... we have a section in this forum for M8 only that tha is filled with discussion on M8 issues... and at times we do hear some good news and great outputs.

 

I am still waiting for a chance to enjoy my M8. I didn't have it long enough. I have my M8 sent back to NJ after one day and it wasn't my first M8 being sent back... It was just troubling that I have not had any chance to enjoy the M8 and the almost $5K yet. Buying a Leica, in my mind, has never been a risk. Leica has always been a pleasure. That is why a lot Leica folks has a bad case of the "L-GAS"... Leica Gear Aquisition Syndrome.

... and we enjoy taking pictures and enjoy the tool... not talking about camera issues.

 

Again... Thanx.. time to go back and shoot with my MP/50 Lux with XP2

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Your statement I bolded and underlined above are pure hog wash. I have 2 M8 bodies and 6 Leica lneses, 5 of which are brand new. The 50 and 75 Crons, new lenses, do not focus correctly on either of my 2 bodies. The older one, a 90 Tele-Elmarit, which just came back from NJ for coding does not focus correctly either. The 75 back focuses and get worse as the distance to the subject increases. The 50 & 90 front focus. This is on both M8 bodies.

Now I am faced with sending at least one body and 3 lenses off for god knows how long to be calibrated. And then hoping they work on my other body along with my other lenses working on the body that was calibrated.

It's not much to ask that a $5000 camera and $2000-$3000 lenses BE RIGHT when they leave the factory.

 

+1

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