Torontoamateur Posted January 9, 2019 Share #1 Posted January 9, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) I read too much and have GAS. But i wonder... will I really miss out of I do not change from my nice Zeiss 21mm F/2.8 ZM ( it rhymes) to the touted Super Elmar ASPH 21mm F/3.4? Who has and was it really an improvement ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 9, 2019 Posted January 9, 2019 Hi Torontoamateur, Take a look here Shall I change from Zeiss ZM 21mm F/2.8 to 21mm Super Elmar?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mike3996 Posted January 9, 2019 Share #2 Posted January 9, 2019 I'm also interested. The Zeiss seems like a nice lens, with not much anything to fault but then again, the SEM is "only" 1400 eur more. I'm currently without a 21 Do you use your ZM wide open often? I realise it's only a half a stop but do you feel the light intake has benefited you more often than not? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 9, 2019 Share #3 Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, mike3996 said: I'm also interested. The Zeiss seems like a nice lens, with not much anything to fault but then again, the SEM is "only" 1400 eur more. I'm currently without a 21 Do you use your ZM wide open often? I realise it's only a half a stop but do you feel the light intake has benefited you more often than not? When would you use a 21 wide open? Take a look at the new CV 3.5 and save some money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike3996 Posted January 9, 2019 Share #4 Posted January 9, 2019 29 minutes ago, pedaes said: When would you use a 21 wide open? When you bathe in money and own the 21 summilux Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark II Posted January 9, 2019 Share #5 Posted January 9, 2019 FWIW, I bought the 21SEM and it is astonishingly good - easily the best UWA I have ever used for edge to edge sharpness. But if I were buying today I think that I would probably opt for one of the older 21mm f2.8 lenses from Leica which seem to show more character when shot wide open. i would love the 21LUX, which is truly unique in what it can do, but I do not really have an application or project that demands it (let alone one which would pay for it!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted January 9, 2019 Share #6 Posted January 9, 2019 I did that change a few months ago, and the SEM keep impressing me. My 21 Biogon exhibited a little bit of the "Italian flag" syndrome, and I did not find any particular coding efficient to alleviate that, so it was a big frustrating to use. Not only the SEM is perfect in that regard, but also it brings impressive contrast and sharpness that work so well on all kinds of pictures (landscape, architecture, street). Of course, if budget is limiting, the Biogon does the job, but the SEM seems well worth the price difference to me as soon as you can pay for a gently used copy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted January 9, 2019 Share #7 Posted January 9, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have three 21mm lenses, all good. I used the Zeiss Biogon last week and like being able to use the wider apertures. The others I have are the first 21mm f4 Super Angulon in screw fit which is nice to use on the older bodies and the Voigtländer version in Nikon S fit, which is good but possibly not up to the Zeiss. I am talking about real pictures on Black and White film, no concern about Italian flags! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_lee Posted January 9, 2019 Share #8 Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) When I was looking at getting another 21mm lens to update/replace my 21mm/4 Super-Angulon lens, I was very interested in the Zeiss Biogon f/4.5 lens (for M cameras). If I was only shooting film, I would have bought the Zeiss lens. But since I continue to shoot both film and digital and wanted no color smearing, etc., I got the Super-Elmar. I am totally pleased with everything this lens has to offer. For the subject matter that I have used it for, the f/3.4 starting aperture has not hampered me at all. In fact, I have great faith in using the lens at full aperture due to the resultant image quality possible. Edited January 9, 2019 by keith_lee added specificity to lens type Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Michel Posted January 10, 2019 Share #9 Posted January 10, 2019 Worth looking at the WATE. I traded my 21 CV for the WATE and could not be happier. Does mean using the EVF for framing - I would find fine frankenfinder way too cumbersome. I frame with the EVF but focus primarily with the rangefinder, or by scale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark T Posted January 10, 2019 Share #10 Posted January 10, 2019 I would suggest that you only buy the Leica lens if you intend to use this lens extensively in harsh, typically outdoor environments. My experience is that Leica lenses are better built than the Zeiss lenses, so if durability was the goal I'd go with Leica. Otherwise, the Zeiss will be a better lens to use indoors (it's faster), and will, for all intents and purposes match the image quality of the Leica. It will possibly bet better than the Leica in some respects, like flare resistance. But I think you're splitting hairs at this point. You already own the Zeiss and Leica lenses aren't cheap. Surely this would be a factor too? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torontoamateur Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share #11 Posted January 11, 2019 21 hours ago, Mark T said: I would suggest that you only buy the Leica lens if you intend to use this lens extensively in harsh, typically outdoor environments. My experience is that Leica lenses are better built than the Zeiss lenses, so if durability was the goal I'd go with Leica. Otherwise, the Zeiss will be a better lens to use indoors (it's faster), and will, for all intents and purposes match the image quality of the Leica. It will possibly bet better than the Leica in some respects, like flare resistance. But I think you're splitting hairs at this point. You already own the Zeiss and Leica lenses aren't cheap. Surely this would be a factor too? The money issue is always there , But then there is the issue tht the picture of a far away place is not repeatable and at that point a few thousand means nothing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Q Posted January 11, 2019 Share #12 Posted January 11, 2019 Never tried the Zeiss but the 21 SEM is the sharpest WA lens I have every owned. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m410 Posted January 11, 2019 Share #13 Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) On 1/9/2019 at 4:51 AM, Torontoamateur said: I read too much and have GAS. But i wonder... will I really miss out of I do not change from my nice Zeiss 21mm F/2.8 ZM ( it rhymes) to the touted Super Elmar ASPH 21mm F/3.4? YES! Leica's 21mm f/3.4 is one of their best. It is small, lightweight (i.e. easy to have with you), accurate and extremely sharp. It is capable of straight forward wide-angle coverage or wonderfully dramatic images...it is fun and reliable to use. I replaced my 21mm f/2.8 Elmarit and have since been simply amazed for the results in both landscapes and on the street. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 11, 2019 by jDD-m410 5 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/293101-shall-i-change-from-zeiss-zm-21mm-f28-to-21mm-super-elmar/?do=findComment&comment=3662499'>More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted January 11, 2019 Share #14 Posted January 11, 2019 FWIW, Tom Abrahamsson felt that the 21 Super Elmar was the best 21 ever made, period. Tom was a bit of a wide angle junkie as I am and I always respected his opinions in this regard. I still have my dad's 21/4 Super Angulon which I will keep for sentimental purposes. I had the 21/2.8 first version, which I sold. I replaced it with the 21/2.8 ASPH a few years ago and loved it. I recently sold it when I acquired the WATE, which is a phenomonal lens. I also sold my 18/4 ZM as I felt I would never use it with the WATE in my bag. Some years ago, I also acquired a CV 21/4, which is a great lens on the Monochrom. Have not used it on the M10. I keep it just in case I want a small UWA in the bag to travel light. I must say having used the WATE on a recent European trip, I think I have finally found the ultimate UWA lens. If Tom were still with us, I would love to have gotten his take on it! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henning Posted January 13, 2019 Share #15 Posted January 13, 2019 21mm lenses have been a big part of my photographic life since early on, in part due to my architectural photography business. Over the years I've used and/or owned upwards of 75 lenses with an angle of view of 90° or greater, with maybe 40 being either 20 or 21mm for FF (or 35mm). In 2001 I wrote an article for the LHSA Viewfinder comparing 4 21mm lenses including a rare one that Tom Abrahamsson had lent me, but the comparison was film based, not digital. I only have one of those lenses now; the 21 Elmarit ASPH. Currently I also have the 21 SEM, the WATE and the 21 Summilux. As we lived close to each other and saw each other often, Tom and I often borrowed each other's lenses. The 21 SEM is, all in all, probably the best lens in this range at present when considering most imaging parameters. It will produce the best MTF graphs, mates perfectly with a digital M and will not leave you wanting. Except for speed. Except for low distortion. Except for 'character'. I have kept the Elmarit ASPH for 'character', as I really like the slightly less critically crisp, smooth even 'softer' rendition, that actually doesn't really leave much detail unresolved. It is just a little less harsh in some circumstances, but it is really just a very small difference. It's unfortunately just a bit too large. The Summilux (which I ordered the day I found out for sure that it would be produced) is obviously a different lens altogether, and it has amazing performance when considering its speed. The Tri-Elmar is of course the versatility champ, with performance that's similar to that of the Elmarit ASPH or maybe, at 21mm, just a bit more even. For low distortion you really have to use something that's fully symmetrical, like the Zeiss f/4.5 Biogon which has its own issues and can hardly be recommended as a general purpose lens. The Super-Angulon 3.4 is similar to the Biogon in its problems, but is not nearly as good a lens overall. The old, 1950's Biogon could be grouped with the old f/4 SA; both are significantly outclassed by their newer counterparts but have the same characteristics overall. For film, I probably would still shoot the Biogon mostly. The Zeiss 21/2.8 is most similar to the Elmarit ASPH, but I find it to be slightly harsher without approaching the performance of the SEM. There are also a number of 21mm lenses that have come out over the years that are fairly rare. Most are best kept as collectibles, as none perform better than the SEM or the Biogon or even a good copy of the 21/4 Voigtlander, the latter being much cheaper than almost all odd competitors. As an aside, the Voigrtlander 21's are as usual very good values. Neither competes with their closest Leica equivalents, but they are quite decent and if they had bee produced in 1985 would have been the best in their field. There is also a bit more copy to copy variation that you have to watch out for. There are few moderate aperture prime 20 or 21mm lenses for SLR's now, in large part because many zooms that include this focal length are better than the last primes made be their respective manufacturers. Today's zooms cannot be discounted. 3 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 13, 2019 Share #16 Posted January 13, 2019 For those interested in options and to build on henning's very helpful review above, I would suggest you look at Sean Reid's (subscription) site where he covers all the recent Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander 21's . A subscription might save a 'wrong' choice https://www.reidreviews.com/articleindextable.html I will be very interested to see what Sean makes of the new Voigtlander 21/3.5 when it is available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveclem Posted January 13, 2019 Share #17 Posted January 13, 2019 I'm curious, I've seen a couple of suggestions to subscribe to Sean Reids site but what is it that makes his opinion worth the subscription over a non charging review from other sources? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torontoamateur Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share #18 Posted January 13, 2019 2 hours ago, steveclem said: I'm curious, I've seen a couple of suggestions to subscribe to Sean Reids site but what is it that makes his opinion worth the subscription over a non charging review from other sources? Not worth the money. Well I bought the 21mm SEM. Its on its way. The Zeiss will stay and be on my Zeiss Ikon ZM finderless body. I still shoot film and the 21 is a wonderful perspective. I am really looking forward to the SEM. I did have the 21mm Voitlander. I gave it to my Daughter along with the finderless Bessa. That too is a very nice. For SLR I use the Nikon 20mm AIS and the AF. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 13, 2019 Share #19 Posted January 13, 2019 2 hours ago, steveclem said: I'm curious, I've seen a couple of suggestions to subscribe to Sean Reids site but what is it that makes his opinion worth the subscription over a non charging review from other sources? They are very in depth factual reviews covering all aspects of performance.Not only lenses but cameras also. Sean is a Leics Beta tester, but is totally objective in his opinions. 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 13, 2019 Share #20 Posted January 13, 2019 21 minutes ago, Torontoamateur said: Not worth the money. Well I bought the 21mm SEM. Its on its way. The Zeiss will stay and be on my Zeiss Ikon ZM finderless body. I still shoot film and the 21 is a wonderful perspective. I am really looking forward to the SEM. I did have the 21mm Voitlander. I gave it to my Daughter along with the finderless Bessa. That too is a very nice. For SLR I use the Nikon 20mm AIS and the AF. I am sure you will be very happy. Sharpest of the bunch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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