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sshamim

Leica TL w/ 23mm lens over Fuji X100F?

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Hi there,

I can't find many reviews and info about TL on the web. Mainly T and TL2. 

Was about to pull the trigger on X100F, but just saw a Leica TL+ Summicron TL 23mm, BRAND NEW, on eBay shipping from Netherlands for ~$1500. Sounds like a good deal, but not sure about warranty situation. I'm in San Francisco.

Is TL going to give me a better IQ than X100F? Do I get that Leica 3D pop and micro-contrast stuff?

Also, I don't shoot sports but want a responsive camera. Shot-to-shot, image review, focus, etc.

Speaking of focus, how are those 9 point in terms of accuracy and speed?

Should I check Leica store in San Francisco and play with a TL first?

Currently own a RX100 Mark V (which I hate) and a Canon EoS M3 with 35mm FFEQ lens which has great image equality but painfully slow operations and speed.

Thanks

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Posted (edited)

Leica stuff bought in Europe has international warranty. 

Just be sure the seller stamps the warranty card prior shipping. That’s all. 

Pretty good deal, you got a free body for less than the price of a TL 23 brand new  

Summicron-TL is a very nice lens, better than quite soft X100’s one. 

And you can change lens as you wish. 

TL with latest firmware has plenty fast AF. 

Edited by nicci78

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The TL is essentially the T, so reviews of the T will be close enough to the TL. The TL2 was a big step forward: 24MP sensor vs 16MP, faster AF etc.

I can't answer your question about the X100F - I've never used one.

And of course you should try one out in the store first if you have the opportunity: how can you think of buying a new camera without doing so???

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4 hours ago, sshamim said:

Hi there,

I can't find many reviews and info about TL on the web. Mainly T and TL2. 

Was about to pull the trigger on X100F, but just saw a Leica TL+ Summicron TL 23mm, BRAND NEW, on eBay shipping from Netherlands for ~$1500. Sounds like a good deal, but not sure about warranty situation. I'm in San Francisco.

Is TL going to give me a better IQ than X100F? Do I get that Leica 3D pop and micro-contrast stuff?

Also, I don't shoot sports but want a responsive camera. Shot-to-shot, image review, focus, etc.

Speaking of focus, how are those 9 point in terms of accuracy and speed?

Should I check Leica store in San Francisco and play with a TL first?

Currently own a RX100 Mark V (which I hate) and a Canon EoS M3 with 35mm FFEQ lens which has great image equality but painfully slow operations and speed.

Thanks

I don't know about the X100F so cannot compare, but have read that many are of the opinion that the Leica glass is superior.  Pricewise, it sounds like a good deal.

I own the T and TL2.  The T has come a long ways with firmware updates such that the speed of shooting is greatly improved. But, it is not a fast shooter, and is definitely not as fast as the CL. (Nor is the TL2 for that matter).  The T/TL is beautifully built, feels so very sold, and has a unique user interface with on-screen menus. It takes getting familiar with, but it is not confusing once you have done so. It is also a real conversation starter because of its looks!

I love the T/TL images. 16mp is generally fine for most purposes that 'we' have. Definitely try it out in the Leica SF to make sure it is what you want.  If you are going to shoot a lot outdoors, you may want to also acquire an external EVF, as bright sun may make shooting with the beautiful rear screen difficult at times. I think you'll enjoy the camera much more so than the RX100. You will certainly have much more flexibility with lens options.

Rob

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Grey market here apparently. I would ask the seller to be sure but you won't get any stamp on the warranty card, i suspect, and you'll have to send the camera in to Wetzlar to get repairs for free most probably. Tempting if the seller provides an e**y money back guarantee though since the price you've got is that of a second hand Leica 23/2 only. As for the X100F i have no experience with it sorry. 

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The stamp on the guaranty card is completely irrelevant for Leica. The date on the first-buyer invoice counts. Wetzlar is just 24 hours away by UPS ;)

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in Paris Leica store, they told me that invoices are useless, only stamps on warranty card is valid for Wetzlar

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In over 40 years, and corresponding repairs, not my experience. Actually, I cannot remember when one of my cards was stamped. Actually, requiring a stamped card violates European consumer regulations.

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Never had a warranty card stamped here in the USA. Been using Leica for over 30 years. Most new products come in a sealed outer box and the dealer usually never opens them before selling especially if it is online.

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There cannot be violations of EU regulations properly speaking since they are not directly aplicable to sellers and buyers but those regulations are transposed into EU national laws normally. In EU countrys where such transposition took place (e.g. France in 2005) there is a legal guarantee of two years since then and there is no need to provide any guarantee card to benefit from it. Now possible disputes are submitted to the national law of the consumer's residence in Europe so there is little chance that EU laws will apply to the OP if he or she resides in the USA. 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks everyone for your insights.

Looks like I''ll be giving up on resolution, speed, high-ISO performance and built-in viewfinder plus adding ~$500 on top of that to get the Leica build and look.

Doesn't sound like a wise decision, but going to play with TL at Leica's San Francisco store to see if it wins my heart.

If not, I'll go with Fuji until when I'm willing to invest more and "graduate" to a better/modern Leica.

 

Regards

Edited by sshamim

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Just ask how the warranty works to the seller and that’s it. 

In Paris Leica store customer service  just requires warranty card stamped. Not invoice. It’s been like that for years. So maybe different elsewhere. 

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In the end, Leica's position counts - and they don't request warranty cards. I always deal with Wetzlar directly anyway.

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Haven't dealt with Leica Paris for many years but the last time i got a faulty lens (a 75/2.5 bought new in Germany) i emailed my invoice and unstamped guarantee card to Wetzlar and they asked Leica France to repair the lens for free. Was a minor repair then but i feel hard to believe that my claim would have been rejected if i had purchased the same lens in France on the pretext that there was no stamp on the guarantee card. Since 2016 at least, the French law doesn't allow for that.

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A quick update for anyone who might be following this thread now or later:

I went to BestBuy with my SD card and played with a Fuji X100F. It was very fast ( operation and focus) with excellent high ISO performance. Clearly a class above Leica TL.

However, it did feel like a toy compared to Leica. I had the same feeling that you get when you get out of an Audi and sit in a Honda. Also, although its Film Simulations were nice and fun, they were still behind the Leica colors and look.

I also played with a Sony A7 Mark II and the colors and skin tones that it produced were essentially a mess.

These days everybody says "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and is "subjective". I tried to believe in that, perhaps as a "moral decision" to become a "tolerant" person, but deep down I still feel that beauty has many objective qualities to it and Europeans can usually get closer to that "eternal" beauty than rest of the world (exceptions aside).

Long story short, I went back home and ordered a new Leica TL with 23mm lens for $1500. Essentially, I'm getting a free body with 23mm lens. Hopefully I can replace that body with a TL2 or CL next year :)

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Starting with a (virtually free) TL body and 23mm Summicron and then saving up for a TL2 or CL body upgrade down the road is a great idea. You can keep the lens, and maybe can pick up a good used TL2 or CL body. Seems like a smart approach to get into Leica’s APS-C line.  

inthink you will be pleased with the output - 

I kept my T for 4 years and I don’t feel it was too slow (after the firmware upgrade) or got too much in the way, for my type of shooting.  

Buffering large bursts of manual focused DNG’s was the exception here - but I don’t shoot often like that so - we bonded for a good long time. 

Good look with your new TL kit, and welcome to the forum. 

Edited by DGP

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I have owned every single iteration of the X100 series. It has its charm, but the lens is one of its weaker points. You do not need to get to macro range to experience the softness of the lens. And it's not just soft, but things have a very artificial 'glow' which I dislike. And unlike most people, I dislike Fuji color profiles. Even the RAW files are baked in a way that you cannot completely take control over the way the colors are presented. They look good at first but I got very tired of the look... unlike Leica. The Leica look grows on you. 

Don't forget there is a Leica CL Street Kit with the 23mm now. see my quick write up here .

Edited by wslam

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On 1/10/2019 at 6:17 PM, sshamim said:

Long story short, I went back home and ordered a new Leica TL with 23mm lens for $1500. Essentially, I'm getting a free body with 23mm lens. Hopefully I can replace that body with a TL2 or CL next year :)

I've used the Fuji X100 and it certainly is fun to use. In terms of IQ, my gut says you made the right move going Leica. I have the CL with the same 23mm lens. Even given that the lens has an F2 aperture (not F1.8 or F1.4) on a crop sensor, it still can very effectively deliver that 3D pop look you described. Beautiful sharpness as well. I'm very pleased with mine and I'm certain you will feel the same. 

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On 1/15/2019 at 1:04 AM, wslam said:

I have owned every single iteration of the X100 series. It has its charm, but the lens is one of its weaker points. You do not need to get to macro range to experience the softness of the lens. And it's not just soft, but things have a very artificial 'glow' which I dislike. And unlike most people, I dislike Fuji color profiles. Even the RAW files are baked in a way that you cannot completely take control over the way the colors are presented. They look good at first but I got very tired of the look... unlike Leica. The Leica look grows on you. 

Don't forget there is a Leica CL Street Kit with the 23mm now. see my quick write up here .

Agreed about Fuji colors. They're exciting at first, but artificial afterwards. I'm still trying to understand the Leica look though. The JPEGs in standard mode look a bit undersaturated to me. Need to play in-camera setting and try +1 saturation. Also, it's unfortunate that Lightroom doesn't support Camera Matching profiles for Leica TL. Meaning that I'm stuck to Adobe colors for DNG files. I think the colors look the best with Adobe Standard profile.

 

 

On 1/16/2019 at 6:37 PM, wsself said:

I've used the Fuji X100 and it certainly is fun to use. In terms of IQ, my gut says you made the right move going Leica. I have the CL with the same 23mm lens. Even given that the lens has an F2 aperture (not F1.8 or F1.4) on a crop sensor, it still can very effectively deliver that 3D pop look you described. Beautiful sharpness as well. I'm very pleased with mine and I'm certain you will feel the same. 

Agreed!

Going off topic a bit here, I also picked up a mint Sony a7 with a 35mm Zeiss 2.8 lens. The whole combination cost me about a grand. I have been against Sony cameras for a long time, but man, this combination changed my mind. I'll do a comparison between the TL+23 and a7+35mm just for fun!

 

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On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 8:14 PM, sshamim said:

Agreed!

Going off topic a bit here, I also picked up a mint Sony a7 with a 35mm Zeiss 2.8 lens. The whole combination cost me about a grand. I have been against Sony cameras for a long time, but man, this combination changed my mind. I'll do a comparison between the TL+23 and a7+35mm just for fun!

 

Hi, did your TL and 23mm come ? how are you finding it ?

The Sony series is brilliant and the colours and colour depth of the Sony are the best out there (devastatingly neutral but the best to PP IMHO), but their lenses are large.

The TL/CL system is much more compact

 

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