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Sensor issues, what would you suggest

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12 hours ago, mgrayson3 said:

What upgrade to the 007? It doesn't exist until it ships. Ditto the 100MP Fuji. Yes, I've seen a pre-production S3. Yes, it is a big uptick from the 007, but how it compares in real usage to the 007 or X1D or GFX, I have no idea. The 100MP Fuji will be larger and heavier than the 50MP, so it may not have any size/weight advantage over the S3. Hassy hasn't announced anything.

I just find all of this "Fuji will probably do this," and "It's rumored that Fuji will do that" extremely tiresome. If I had my choice of nonexistent cameras, it wouldn't be any of the above!

Let Leica release the S3. Then we'll see what the crowd does. I still prefer Leica optics to anything I've seen from ... anyone.

In your opinion it is tiresome. Not for me. It seems it will be one of the most ground breaking cameras to date and for good reason.

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34 minutes ago, Dr No said:

In your opinion it is tiresome. Not for me. It seems it will be one of the most ground breaking cameras to date and for good reason.

 

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I think it is still a bit of an unknown, 100MP on a 33x44 sensor will be the highest pixel density yet I think (3.7u).  Higher than 35FF (+4u) and IQ4 150 (3.76u), although the latter looks to be a stunning back.

john

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We will see. The 100MP sensor will be BSI which is being touted as the newest and greatest architecture to overcome various issues inherent in previous designs (better high ISO performance, colour separation etc.). On the other hand, the main selling point of the S3 is supposed to be a fantastic new sensor, with much better colour and high ISO performance than S007 (which is still VERY good), but of which we don't know much yet, beyond resolution and max ISO. Unfortunately, neither camera is ready for prime time yet, no sample images have been released for either. Seems like both companies have felt under pressure to announce development of something amazing at last year's Photokina, resulting in endless (and somewhat pointless) debates like this one. What is clear to nearly everyone is that Fuji is currently on the roll, innovating fast and making MF accessible to a wide spectrum of new users, through great image quality, very decent handling and reliability and previously unheard of (in MF) prices for bodies and lenses. Whereas Leica at one point was feared to have abandoned the S line altogether, in favour of SL (remember these debates here about a year ago). So, for many people (maybe not the OP who indeed should probably buy an S006 or S007 as he owns lenses) the question will not be the just the merits of one body vs. the other but whether they are jumping on a train with a great momentum and fast expanding user base, with acceptable annual depreciation or whether they should put more money in a super expensive system with unclear future and rather high absolute loss in terms of resale value.   

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11 hours ago, John McMaster said:

I think it is still a bit of an unknown, 100MP on a 33x44 sensor will be the highest pixel density yet I think (3.7u).  Higher than 35FF (+4u) and IQ4 150 (3.76u), although the latter looks to be a stunning back.

john

It’s the same sensor to the 150. Just cropped to 4433. Same tech same pitch. 

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6 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

those pics almost look like an SL-601 and a grip ;)

anyways...the raw files and their dynamic range aren't ugly ;)

Edited by frame-it

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9 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

It’s the same sensor to the 150. Just cropped to 4433. Same tech same pitch. 

Is it?  The IQ4 is 16bit but current 50MP is 14bit, if the 100MP moves to 16bit I thought more would have been made from it...

john

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On 1/10/2019 at 9:12 AM, John McMaster said:

I think it is still a bit of an unknown, 100MP on a 33x44 sensor will be the highest pixel density yet I think (3.7u).

Users will revisit issues that we saw in years past with the 5Dsr, D800, A7r, etc: you will need meticulous technique and near-perfect lenses to fully exploit that resolution. There's a reason why Otus lenses are popular...

BTW, I don't mean to imply that there's something wrong with having 100MP and using it for other results than absolute sharpness. More pixels make smoother files, which is often useful for portraits (for instance). I do think that, overall, really high pixel densities are like the top speed number on a street car: interesting, but not relevant day-to-day. We saw that with the current generation of medium format: the S held its own in print with 37MP, compared to 50MP competitors. Having the best lenses in the business helps, of course.

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Sigh...I wish my M9, Q, 006, 007 or IIIc went from 0 to 100mp in 1/8000 of a second, like this new Fuji. 

Time to toss the lot.

David

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4 hours ago, John McMaster said:

Is it?  The IQ4 is 16bit but current 50MP is 14bit, if the 100MP moves to 16bit I thought more would have been made from it...

john

It's the same BSI sensor. Just a cropped version of it. 16bit, and full Phase detection, so IQ will be higher due to the BSI design(shallower micro lens or something) than comparable 100mp (which I don't think there's any other). Also, Fuji is now supported by C1 which is a better RAW editor in terms of color compare to adobe....

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1 hour ago, BernardC said:

I do think that, overall, really high pixel densities are like the top speed number on a street car: interesting, but not relevant day-to-day.

Which really high pixel density camera do you use?

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9 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

It's the same BSI sensor. Just a cropped version of it. 16bit, and full Phase detection, so IQ will be higher due to the BSI design(shallower micro lens or something) than comparable 100mp (which I don't think there's any other). Also, Fuji is now supported by C1 which is a better RAW editor in terms of color compare to adobe....

its the IMX461?

 

 

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On 1/8/2019 at 7:05 PM, helged said:

Regarding S007 to S3 upgrading, from reddotforum:

"Would it be possible to for customers with the S007 to have their cameras upgraded to the S3 by Customer Care?

We did consider the possibility of an upgrade program, but because the entire camera would have to be taken down to its base components and rebuilt like a new camera, with full calibration and alignment, along with the cost of the sensor and supporting technology, the cost would be quite high. We figure that most customers will find it more economical to trade-in or sell their current camera."

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

This doesn't mean that upgrade will not be offered, but that a full overhaul is needed, with a corresponding cost tag, I believe. 

Having the S006 myself - that I very much like - it certainly is pretty much limited to low ISO for optimal image quility. At low ISO, it shines.

I read that as Leica Camera did consider whether an upgrade would be practical but decided that it would be too expensive to appeal to customers and it will not happen. We are presumably some way from the S3 actually being available in any case and the price is not announced. I speculate that a tradeup option might be more likely than an upgrade option

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A convincing trade-up option is what I am looking for. If, as usual, there is none, then I will very likely not be upgrading. My Leica dealer has a second hand department and a new department, both under the same ownership but each behaving like its own profit center. This time, I am not prepared to haggle with the second hand guys about the sale price of my S007 (and leave them a nice margin to resell it on ebay) before crossing to the new department to buy the S3, leaving another margin for the new department guys. Given the competitive landscape of 2019, the once again expected exorbitant price of the S3, and the AF motor fiasco which has impaired the resale value of my lenses, I would expect the owner of my dealership to sit down with the guys from both departments, do a bit of soul searching and offer a fairer price for my potential upgrade. If Leica can help the dealer do this, then even better.

Edited by albireo_double

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I very likely wont be able to afford to upgrade, if, as expected, the price of the S3 will be much higher than that of the S (Typ 007)
Whether the price will be "exorbitant" in comparison to Phase One or reflex Hasselblad I could only decide for myself taking everything in consideration.
 I think that it's fair that a trade in price at a dealer allows for a reasonable profit when that item is resold. Personal judgement again.
Not that there would be any one In my country  trading in Leica on new Leica that I know of anyway!  We are far from the Mothership.
Again, here at least, an item's price on eBay might be typically less than at a used camera dealer (more risk, no support etc).
If I had a trade in offer hypothetically I might measure it against what might be possible on eBay.
It will be very interesting to see what options if any arise in Europe and the US if Leica Camera were to provide any dealer subsidy.
My guess would be it more likely that new stock of the S (Typ 007) might drop in price instead

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On 1/10/2019 at 8:26 PM, John McMaster said:

I do not use my S2-P since I got my S(007), the latter is better in every way for me.

john

Same. I have an S2 idle in the cupboard. I considered  fitting one lens to each body but the (Typ 007) works better for me in every way for how I shoot.
This thread as with some others seems to get more and more Fujifilm support. Sometimes I don't even see any  Leica  content in those posts at all. Well the Mods are more tolerant than I I guess!

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