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Daedalus2000

Sensor issues, what would you suggest

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Hi everyone, I know I do not contribute a lot but I always enjoy your images and discussions. I would appreciate your advice please.

My S2-P has the sensor issue and as it is out of warranty now, I have to pay to replace the sensor. The two obvious options are to replace the sensor with one that will not have the issue (that is what I was told) or upgrade to S007 at a good price. My problem is that I loved the output of my S2 and although I do not use it regularly (because of size and lack of time), I always felt I had a soft spot for this camera. I also care about the cost, especially when the Fujifilm GFX is so much cheaper.

When I thought a bit more about all possible options I see the following:

1) Upgrade the S2 sensor

2) Upgrade to S007

3) Sell all Leica and buy Fujifilm GFX and lenses at considerable discount to S007

4) Wait until the S3 is out and then see if the price makes sense, or if the S007 price goes down

5) Buy an X1D (just joking :))

6) Do nothing and only use my S2 wide open, as I usually do...

What would you suggest? I have used my S2 for portraits/street mainly and pictures of the family life... I also enjoyed using it with adapted lenses (Mamiya/Hasselblad)

 

 

 

 

 

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The Fuji and lenses are about 75% of the S-system weights, and not much smaller. The X1D and lenses are about 50% of the size and weight of the S. I prefer the S ergonomics, but if size and weight are an issue, don't ignore the X1D.

Try them all.

-Matt 

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Posted (edited)

And who knows if and when an X2D might be in the mix.  A more refined and reliable version would be welcome, especially if the superb ergonomics of the X1D are retained. No joke.

Only way to resolve is to demo the options.

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Daedalus2000:

Hi everyone, I know I do not contribute a lot but I always enjoy your images and discussions. I would appreciate your advice please.

My S2-P has the sensor issue and as it is out of warranty now, I have to pay to replace the sensor. The two obvious options are to replace the sensor with one that will not have the issue (that is what I was told) or upgrade to S007 at a good price. My problem is that I loved the output of my S2 and although I do not use it regularly (because of size and lack of time), I always felt I had a soft spot for this camera. I also care about the cost, especially when the Fujifilm GFX is so much cheaper.

When I thought a bit more about all possible options I see the following:

1) Upgrade the S2 sensor

2) Upgrade to S007

3) Sell all Leica and buy Fujifilm GFX and lenses at considerable discount to S007

4) Wait until the S3 is out and then see if the price makes sense, or if the S007 price goes down

5) Buy an X1D (just joking :))

6) Do nothing and only use my S2 wide open, as I usually do...

What would you suggest? I have used my S2 for portraits/street mainly and pictures of the family life... I also enjoyed using it with adapted lenses (Mamiya/Hasselblad)

 

 

 

 

 

I can tell you that the price of the S3 will not make much sense to a lot of people.

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I'd say keep shooting the S2 for now and then upgrade to the S 007 when used prices fall within a range that makes sense (which they may be already). 

The new GFX-50R with a 45mm or 63mm lens is really closer to half the weight of the S equivalent. I tried it, but still preferred the S.

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1 hour ago, mgrayson3 said:

The Fuji and lenses are about 75% of the S-system weights, and not much smaller. The X1D and lenses are about 50% of the size and weight of the S. I prefer the S ergonomics, but if size and weight are an issue, don't ignore the X1D.

Try them all.

-Matt 

Thank you Matt, you make a good point about the X1D size, but I really have discounted it in my mind because when it was released and I tried it, it was still very much still in "beta" stage and I completely disliked its slowness. Later when I tried it again in a shop the back screen detached from the camera (!!), and after that I never took it seriously... Having said that the images from it look gorgeous

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

And who knows if and when an X2D might be in the mix.  A more refined and reliable version would be welcome, especially if the superb ergonomics of the X1D are retained. No joke.

Only way to resolve is to demo the options.

Jeff

Good point Jeff, I did not think the option of the X2D... Another issue I had with the X1D was the slow sensor readout (0.3 secs) that makes the use of adapted lenses more difficult, maybe this is improved with the X2d

Edited by Daedalus2000

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7 minutes ago, HuntingSand said:

I can tell you that the price of the S3 will not make much sense to a lot of people.

You are probably right :).  By the way, I am inspired by your results with the S 006. Problem is in London the light gets really low during winter etc so higher iso performance is important...

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5 minutes ago, alan.y said:

I'd say keep shooting the S2 for now and then upgrade to the S 007 when used prices fall within a range that makes sense (which they may be already). 

The new GFX-50R with a 45mm or 63mm lens is really closer to half the weight of the S equivalent. I tried it, but still preferred the S.

Interesting, I did not realise the new GFX-50R was so much lighter (with the lens). I need to check it. I guess, I also have to consider if the EVF vs optical viewfinder is a plus or minus. My SL has a wonderful EVF so it has not been a problem with that camera

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Well, if you use and like the SL, the eventual SL2 might provide some pros and cons vs the larger sensor options.  It will surely gain in MP.

Jeff

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B&H has a wonderful deal now on the GFXR, body and choice of lens combination.  $5000-6000 USD, depending on which lens you choose among the 45mm, 63mm, or the 32-65mm.

I'm considering testing out the GFX, as an alternative to my S007, because of the size and weight.

If you are interested in a S 006 option, there's a really nice one with a new sensor just installed on Fred Miranda Buy/Sell (asking price $3900 USD).  I'd think pre-owned S 007s would run in the range of $9000 USD. I can tell you its ISO range is much better than its predecessors, if that is a concern.

Rob

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1 minute ago, Daedalus2000 said:

Interesting, I did not realise the new GFX-50R was so much lighter (with the lens). I need to check it. I guess, I also have to consider if the EVF vs optical viewfinder is a plus or minus. My SL has a wonderful EVF so it has not been a problem with that camera

The 50R body is 775 grams. The 45mm is about 490 grams. That's about exactly the weight of the S body alone. And the Elmarit-S 45mm is very bulky.

With the 50R you also get excellent high iso performance and somewhat increased hand-holding performance (no mirror slap). But it's hard to give up the S OVF and the S lenses, and really just the overall feeling of refinement of the system, for all its many problems.

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Posted (edited)

Daedalus2000,   I would most highly recommend you simply keep the S system and upgrade to the S007.  You have invested in S lenses and of course the S2-P.  I have used both the X1D and Fuji systems.  My clients did not like the color and way the others lenses drew.  I went back to the S system and IMO, nothing beats the S glass for resolution and rendering.  My clients agreed with their wallets.  Now, I use the SL system now as age told me the weight for long-distance hiking that I needed to lighten the load.  All said, I checked with the owner of Leica Store San Francisco for you.  He told me, Leica is currently offering a S2-P trade-in for $5,500.00 US and he can discount another 5% on a S007.  I see you are in England and I would imagine the Leica Store in the UK can work the same deal.  One last thing based on my sources, I was told the S007 will most likely be upgradeable in the future with the  S3 sensor and board as the body did not change.  This may happen once the S3 is established with sales.   I hope this helps.  r/Mark   

Edited by LeicaR10

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Daedalus2000:

You are probably right :).  By the way, I am inspired by your results with the S 006. Problem is in London the light gets really low during winter etc so higher iso performance is important...

Thanks much. Yes, the S006 needs good light, and I did take my location into consideration when I took the plunge. I never was a high ISO shooter anyway. Good luck with the decision making process. You probably want something pretty responsive for urban environments. 

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6 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Daedalus2000,   I would most highly recommend you simply keep the S system and upgrade to the S007.  You have invested in S lenses and of course the S2-P.  I have used both the X1D and Fuji systems.  My clients did not like the color and way the others lenses drew.  I went back to the S system and IMO, nothing beats the S glass for resolution and rendering.  My clients agreed with their wallets.  Now, I use the SL system now as age told me the weight for long-distance hiking that I needed to lighten the load.  All said, I checked with the owner of Leica Store San Francisco for you.  He told me, Leica is currently offering a S2-P trade-in for $5,500.00 US and he can discount another 5% on a S007.  I see you are in England and I would imagine the Leica Store in the UK can work the same deal.  One last thing based on my sources, I was told the S007 will most likely be upgradeable in the future with the  S3 sensor and board as the body did not change.  This may happen once the S3 is established with sales.   I hope this helps.  r/Mark   

Regarding S007 to S3 upgrading, from reddotforum:

"Would it be possible to for customers with the S007 to have their cameras upgraded to the S3 by Customer Care?

We did consider the possibility of an upgrade program, but because the entire camera would have to be taken down to its base components and rebuilt like a new camera, with full calibration and alignment, along with the cost of the sensor and supporting technology, the cost would be quite high. We figure that most customers will find it more economical to trade-in or sell their current camera."

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

This doesn't mean that upgrade will not be offered, but that a full overhaul is needed, with a corresponding cost tag, I believe. 

Having the S006 myself - that I very much like - it certainly is pretty much limited to low ISO for optimal image quility. At low ISO, it shines.

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Leica need to announce S3 price. There are too many other options now to have to wait another year to find out. I was considering but the timeframe and rumoured amount is ridiculous.

To the OP, it's a tricky situation. Spending such money on a 007 now would give me pause. It seems unwise.

Fuji GFX is relatively inexpensive for all round better deal, GFXR is even less, so is X1D - they are all wonderful. Used they are even cheaper.

GFX-100 will be out in a few couple months so not much of a wait at all.

 

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Posted (edited)

As owner and user of both S007 (previously S2) and GFX50S, if I faced your situation and for my shooting needs (which may well differ from yours), I would sell the S and buy the Fuji now. Beyond the price differential, I find the image quality comparable (different but each attractive) but I usually end up cropping to 3x4 so end up losing resolution on the S. I also often shoot tethered and prefer the Capture One tethering solution that is available for Fuji now to the LR solution available for the Leica S (I think they still have not fixed the tether plugin which does not apply chosen presets...something that I pointed out to the Leica people two years ago).

Having said the above, my recommendation would differ based on how many S lenses you have. I have a lot of money tied in the system. I own 6 S lenses whose resale value has been significantly undermined by the AF motor problem (and no, I am not going to spend another 1800 EUR now to have the AF motors "replaced preventatively" to induce would-be buyers to take them off my hands at a big loss). So I am sitting on the fence until the S3 comes. But if the S3 becomes available only toward the end of this year and the price is over EUR20K as currently expected (and there is no attractive parts exchange/upgrade program for existing users with big investment in lenses like myself), then I will probably continue using the S007 for a while selling the lenses one by one (to dilute the pain) and gradually replace my system with either the new 100MP Fuji or a second hand Phase One. 

 

Edited by albireo_double

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If you don't mind my asking, what price did Leica quote for swapping your S2 for an S-007?

That would be my preferred option. I found the GFX too slow and awkward for my purposes. The body is as bulky as the S, but much less ergonomic, so I don't think I could use it all day. Others use their cameras in different ways; ergonomics may not be a decisive factor for them.

In the end it should come down to how you use your camera. I think that the GFX and X1D are great upgrades for those who have been using the Sony A7r cameras to coax the last bit of detail out of landscapes and still life images. The S has always been more about fashion/portrait/lifestyle/event work. There's an overlap between the two markets, but it's not that big.

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37 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I think that the GFX and X1D are great upgrades for those who have been using the Sony A7r cameras to coax the last bit of detail out of landscapes and still life images. The S has always been more about fashion/portrait/lifestyle/event work. There's an overlap between the two markets, but it's not that big.

I would not shoebox the Fujis into "landscape and still life" and the Leica into "fashion and portrait" like you do, no matter what the respective marketing departments have us believe. We haven't been told what the OP shoots, so this debate is somewhat academic. With that cleared, let me put this scenario forward: you are shooting with a model in a studio. She is moving fluidly between poses and you have a second or two in each pose while she remains still for you to confirm focus and shoot. Which camera gets the higher percentage of properly focused pictures? The S007 with its single sensor in the middle of the frame and unusable continuous mode, forcing you constantly to focus and recompose (or focus manually)? Or the GFX with its dozens of focusing sensors (adjustable in size and selectable using a joystick) and its automatic face/eye recognition? The answer depends on the photographer and the technique.

As things stand today, you can more or less rely on the GFX's AF to do the work in decent light (e.g. proper modelling lights on), allowing you to concentrate on composition and capturing the emotion. With the 110mm/F2 lens, the Fuji's ability to focus on the nearest eye automatically makes that lens far easier to use at or near wide open than the S100/F2 on the Leica. This will further improve when PDAF is brought on board in the upcoming GFX100S. On the other hand, fashion and portrait photographers have focused and recomposed (and focused manually) for decades, and it can all be done, especially when you have the Leica's fantastic OVF and an assistant with a torchlight ready to act as a "human AF assist light" (watch how Sandro Miller focuses his Hasselblad in the RGG Edu tutorial). Do they  lose some spontaneity in the process? And how spontaneous are all those portrait and fashion photos anyway? Some of the most famous portrait photos showing great spontaneity are entirely out of focus - remember Mario Testino's pictures of Princess Diana? Wonderful series, with not a single photo in focus. Of course, the S is a very capable camera and has been used to great results by some outstanding fashion and art photographers (Marc Lagrange comes to mind). But it is a system that is evolving very slowly, comes at a very high price and is not as well supported as say Phase One. Plus, we the users are constantly kept insecure as to whether it would eventually be dropped, just like Leica dropped the R system.

 Last but not least - many fashion and portrait studios have a workflow based on Capture One. It was a draw before Fuji convinced Phase One to support the GFX cameras for tethering and raw conversion in September last year, but now that this is available, I suspect that many fashion and portrait shooters must also be jumping on board, given the image quality and reasonable cost of the Fujis. And I am not even talking about the availability of TTL and/or HSS flash controllers from the major brands like Profoto or Elinchrom, where the Fujis are now supported like the rest of the world, whereas flash/strobe photography still seems to be an afterthought in the Leica world, especially if your lenses are not all CS.

As for the Leica having "better colour" and the "lenses drawing better", I see what I see on my screen and prints - both cameras produce amazing quality results and my viewers mostly comment on the idea, emotion, mood and general execution, rather than the minute differences in colours (that are always subject to PP) or the rendering of the lenses. OK, Leica, deliver me the S3 body, with the new reportedly fantastic sensor, at no more than EUR15k in May this year, prior to my Summer travels. I will buy it and I may even forget that your S rep told me to expect an invitation to the SL launch in Wetzlar three yeas ago...and then somehow forgot to send it. 

 

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albireo_double,

In the situation that you describe, the S would work better for me, simply because I like to stack my compositions around the actual point of focus, and the GFX viewfinder does not allow me to do that accurately. As I wrote earlier, it should come down to how you use your camera. If your work depends on "face/eye recognition" you will prefer the camera that offers that feature, rather than the one that doesn't offer that feature.

It's all a personal choice. No single camera is right for everybody. I'm glad that you are enjoying your Fuji and that the workflow is well-suited to your photographic style.

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