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Impression of CL + 60mm Macro?

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Posted (edited)

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Actually APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm is a kind of dual focal length :

- FF 90mm or APS-C 60mm f/2.8 from infinity to 1:2.5

- FF 60mm or APS-C 40mm f/3.5 from 1:2.5 to 1:1 hence the 16cm only minimum focusing distance. Too short for a 90mm FF equivalent, but in line with a FF 60mm macro.

The shift of an optic group at 30cm distance acts as an internal extender. 

Edited by nicci78

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Posted (edited)

The AF limiter was not available at launch IIRC, and so was not in the user guide. I think it only came in with a camera f/w update. As is typical with Leica f/w updates (and unhelpful) they don't update the user guide at the same time, either as a new printed copy or as a downloadable PDF.

The TL2 implements the AF limiter in a slightly different way: in the focus settings option you toggle between between AFs and AFc, each with or without the AF limiter, and M - so 5 toggle options. Again, this is not in the user guide because it wasn't part of the original f/w.

I haven't looked at how it works on the SL.

I don't normally notice the absence of these things in the user guide because for most things I learn how they work by going through the menu. This was easy with the TL2: I didn't need the user guide at all. With the CL I needed it to understand how the dial and button customisation worked. I realise there are those who always start with the user guide, and Leica's (lack of) update practices doesn't help them.

Edited by LocalHero1953

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9 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Some measurements :

APO-Macro-TL 60 stays a f/2.8 until 30cm.

Then goes to f/3,5 between 29 and 16cm its minimum.


Smallest object at f/2,8 at 30cm is 5,6cm
Smallest object at  f/3,5 at 25cm is 4,1cm
Smallest object at f/3,5 at 16cm is 1,6cm


Two AF zones, which requires manual focus to go from one zone to another
point of change between the two zones is exactly at 30 cm from sensor plane or 20 cm from the lens filter.

Under 30cm we are on macro AF zone. Above 30cm in infinity normal zone. 

 We feel the change physically when the optical group shifts position. You cannot miss it at 30cm


In macro zone : AF will be available between 16cm and 39cm 
In infinity zone : TL60 will provide AF between 25 cm and infinity  

Only range between 25 to 39cm in f/2,8 will be covered by the 2 AF zones.

 

these are my measurements, no documentation whatsoever provided by Leica. What a shame !

anyway TL macro 60 is one of my favourite lens. 

Thanks for these measurements, but note that you only require manual focusing to get between the two AF ranges if AF Limit is ON. If AF Limit is OFF, then the AF range goes from the minimum close focus distance to infinity - no manual intervention needed.

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2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Actually APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm is a kind of dual focal length :

- FF 90mm or APS-C 60mm f/2.8 from infinity to 1:2.5

- FF 60mm or APS-C 40mm f/3.5 from 1:2.5 to 1:1 hence the 16cm only minimum focusing distance. Too short for a 90mm FF equivalent, but in line with a FF 60mm macro.

The shift of an optic group at 30cm distance acts as an internal extender. 

I'm puzzled - how do you get this figure?

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42 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Thanks for these measurements, but note that you only require manual focusing to get between the two AF ranges if AF Limit is ON. If AF Limit is OFF, then the AF range goes from the minimum close focus distance to infinity - no manual intervention needed.

LocalHero you are my hero. My measurements was made before CL latests firmware update. When there was no focus limiter menu yet. 

The only way then was to manually focus to go from one zone to another. 

I just tried this morning, and it actually works. Thank you. Hopefully now with the new menu, we can finally chose to limit the focus range from infinity to 30cm or to get the whole range infinity to 16cm (but we can get severe hunting) 

By the way, it is not documented by Leica again. What a shame.  

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Posted (edited)

The AF Limit has actually been in place for a long time - I think it was an early f/w upgrade. I think the AF Limit was referred to in the update documentation at the time.
There have been so many important changes made in f/w across many models that have not appeared in pdf user manuals as a minimum - I wish Leica would change their practice in this.
But it helps to keep your f/w up to date.

Edited by LocalHero1953

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12 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Actually APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm is a kind of dual focal length :

- FF 90mm or APS-C 60mm f/2.8 from infinity to 1:2.5

- FF 60mm or APS-C 40mm f/3.5 from 1:2.5 to 1:1 hence the 16cm only minimum focusing distance. Too short for a 90mm FF equivalent, but in line with a FF 60mm macro.

The shift of an optic group at 30cm distance acts as an internal extender. 

Sorry, that makes no sense to me. The TL60's image field at various focus settings matched exactly the image field of my Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm lens at the same distances when I tested it.

Of course, with the ME60, I have to add the Macro Adapter-R when I am working closer than 1:2 magnification. So perhaps what you're trying to say is that they do some optical juggling to achieve 1:1 magnification with the internal focus design. Characterizing that as a "duel focal length" lens is more confusing than illuminating to me; what's important is that it matches a known reference standard for magnification @ distance setting.

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5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The AF Limit has actually been in place for a long time - I think it was an early f/w upgrade. I think the AF Limit was referred to in the update documentation at the time.
There have been so many important changes made in f/w across many models that have not appeared in pdf user manuals as a minimum - I wish Leica would change their practice in this.
But it helps it keep your f/w up to date.

They usually document the firmware updates with info in the accompanying documentation for the update. Revising whole user manuals to include it (like Olympus does) is a big job and, in my experience, create lots of confusion when users are trying to get information ... User using manual version n, support person referring to manual version n+x, etc etc. 

What I do is create my own copy of the user manual as a PDF file to which I append the firmware update information with each available revision. That way I always know what's been added in what revision, and when. 

Yes, I read the entire manual before I even receive any new camera or lens, since they're all available on line nowadays beforehand. Then, once I receive the camera or lens, I work through every command and section of the manual with the machine in my hands ... Starting with the list of commands at the back of the manual to show the defaults. :D

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Ramarren, what I am saying is just that minimum distance is much shorter than expected for a 90mm FF equivalent lens due to huge focus breathing. 

That’s all. You do not get more working distance than a 60mm FF equivalent macro lens. That’s almost a shame . 

 

But I like lens anyway : beautiful pictures.

 

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Do you owners of the TL 60/f2.8 Macro find or feel the f2.8 is a bit too slow if use as a 90mm portrait lens? 

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Well, it is a 60mm lens, not a 90mm lens. All you get is a tighter imaged area, not a longer focal length, if you compare it using the same lens on a FF camera. I wouldn't expect the focus distance for 1:1 magnification to be any different with either format behind it. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, yst said:

Do you owners of the TL 60/f2.8 Macro find or feel the f2.8 is a bit too slow if use as a 90mm portrait lens? 

With a 60mm lens on APS-C, at f/2.8 you get the same amount of DoF that you get with a 90mm lens on FF using f/4.5: approximately half a foot at about 6.5 feet focus setting, the typical "head and shoulders" portrait distance. I've only rarely wanted anything shallower than that when doing portraits because then I'm not getting enough DoF to cover from ear to nose in focus. 

It's really a judgement call for an individual photographer to decide as to whether they want to allow bits of the face to go out of focus in a portrait when keeping the eyes sharp. :)

(My favorite lens for portraiture on the CL is my Pentax-L 43mm f/1.9 Limited. It allows a bit more environmental context into the scene at that same focus setting and the faster speed lets me have a similar DoF.) 

Edited by ramarren

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5 hours ago, yst said:

Do you owners of the TL 60/f2.8 Macro find or feel the f2.8 is a bit too slow if use as a 90mm portrait lens? 

Sometimes yes. F/2 at least would have been nice for better subject separation  

But it is a macro lens. We can get as close as we need for children portraits. Which is nice 

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