Funny hopes for Leica in 2019

[jaapv]

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18 hours ago, CharlesL said:

Camera does not run hot. After a full charge, the battery starts full at four bars. Camera is turned off between use. During use, live view is strictly on the EVF, and Power Off is set to 2 minutes. One power drain worth mention is that the SD card is a Flashair Wi-Fi card, used to take the image files off the camera into the computer. However, I used the same card in an M240 without such poor battery performance.

I would suspect the card. 

[hoppyman]

On 1/3/2019 at 11:20 AM, CharlesL said:

How can Leica put together camera electronics and a battery for the M240 such that battery life is great - yet make electronics and battery for the SL that is lucky to last 80 shots?

I don’t understand what you are doing to get such poor performance. I just completed a shoot with the SL, 700 exposures over several hours and  the battery is not flat by any means 

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[hoppyman]

Bags27 I wish that you had said I wish not We wish

we can all hold different opinions. From your list I can understand the wish for faster repair service. That’s going to vary from place to place as well to some extent. I don’t think it’s quite fair to claim that everyone else can turn things around in days so why not Leica though.

[BernardC]

On 1/3/2019 at 11:10 PM, Ko.Fe. said:

But maybe Leica will figure out how to make cameras with IBIS and dust shake. If not in 2019, but by 2029 for sure.  

The SL already has "dust shake" (ultrasonic sensor cleaning).

I do not agree about IBIS. It has fewer benefits than downsides. I understand why it's considered a must-have-feature for consumer cameras that are sold with slow kit zooms. The target consumer will try to shoot at maximum zoom (minimum f-stop) in dim light without flash, and they won't understand why their pictures didn't "come out." The manufacturer's duty in this case is to do everything possible to produce a reasonably sharp picture, even if it compromises maximum available image quality.

Adding IBIS to a camera means worse packaging, worse heat dissipation, and worse noise (which is a function of heat dissipation). Put it this way: do you want Leica cameras to make the Milky Way disappear, like other brands with IBIS do? Do you want all your shadows smeared and smoothed? I would rather not have a camera that tries to save me from myself.

[BernardC]

On 1/3/2019 at 8:08 PM, CharlesL said:

One power drain worth mention is that the SD card is a Flashair Wi-Fi card, used to take the image files off the camera into the computer. However, I used the same card in an M240 without such poor battery performance.

The SL may be blocking the WiFi signal, causing the card to run at maximum power all the time. Try it with a normal SD card.

[Ko.Fe.]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

The SL already has "dust shake" (ultrasonic sensor cleaning).

I do not agree about IBIS. It has fewer benefits than downsides. I understand why it's considered a must-have-feature for consumer cameras that are sold with slow kit zooms. The target consumer will try to shoot at maximum zoom (minimum f-stop) in dim light without flash, and they won't understand why their pictures didn't "come out." The manufacturer's duty in this case is to do everything possible to produce a reasonably sharp picture, even if it compromises maximum available image quality.

Adding IBIS to a camera means worse packaging, worse heat dissipation, and worse noise (which is a function of heat dissipation). Put it this way: do you want Leica cameras to make the Milky Way disappear, like other brands with IBIS do? Do you want all your shadows smeared and smoothed? I would rather not have a camera that tries to save me from myself.

 

Good to know about SL. But if I ever need camera like this, I'll get the original. Which is made by Sony.

And they do have IBIS. And so is Fujifilm GFX 50R.

So, your assumption about IBIS as consumers thing is incorrect. 

It is not just for consumer zooms on CL, TL, X consumer cameras, where IBIS is missing.

It is for 21 f4 Skopar at 1/4 and for old good  Elmar 90 f4 at 1/30. I don't need Milky Way, but I like to use slow shutter speeds and still get sharp pictures under ambient light :).

[CharlesL]

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3 hours ago, BernardC said:

The SL may be blocking the WiFi signal, causing the card to run at maximum power all the time. Try it with a normal SD card.

As mentioned, I previously used the wi-fi card in an M240. It was more difficult to make and sustain a connection to the computer than when the card is in the SL. The M240 is all metal body. The SL is too, but it has that hump designed to help receive a GPS signal.

Thanks, however, to the suggestions. No doubt I must test with versus without a wi-fi card. At the moment, that is entangled with testing whether another full charge or two of the new battery will improve the situation. Also, I am not shooting a lot at this particular time — but I will report back.

 

[Keith (M)]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

The SL already has "dust shake" (ultrasonic sensor cleaning).

I do not agree about IBIS. It has fewer benefits than downsides. I understand why it's considered a must-have-feature for consumer cameras that are sold with slow kit zooms. The target consumer will try to shoot at maximum zoom (minimum f-stop) in dim light without flash, and they won't understand why their pictures didn't "come out." The manufacturer's duty in this case is to do everything possible to produce a reasonably sharp picture, even if it compromises maximum available image quality.

Adding IBIS to a camera means worse packaging, worse heat dissipation, and worse noise (which is a function of heat dissipation). Put it this way: do you want Leica cameras to make the Milky Way disappear, like other brands with IBIS do? Do you want all your shadows smeared and smoothed? I would rather not have a camera that tries to save me from myself.

That is one viewpoint. For me the IBIS in my Sony A6500 allows me, amongst other things to use my 60mm Macro Elmarit-R hands (and tripod) free to capture close-up images much more easily and successfully than with my M240.

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[BernardC]

22 hours ago, Keith (M) said:

That is one viewpoint. For me the IBIS in my Sony A6500 allows me, amongst other things to use my 60mm Macro Elmarit-R hands (and tripod) free to capture close-up images much more easily and successfully than with my M240.

I agree that IBIS can have its uses. Thing is, anybody who wants IBIS on a non-IS lens can get one of the upcoming Panasonic L-mount bodies, or a Sony body like you have. There's no reason why Leica should offer every permutation of features. They are available elsewhere.

The Sony A6500 is a prime example of why Leica should not offer IBIS (as currently implemented). The camera has well-documented overheating issues, only partially addressed by firmware workarounds. The "solution" that Sony implemented (letting you continue shooting with a higher noise limit, and then shutting-down the camera completely until it can cool-off) is fine for consumer cameras, but it would raise quite a holler if Leica tried it. Can you imagine the forum static: the camera has 12-stops of DR straight out of the fridge, but only 10-stops after an hour? There's a reason why Sony's excellent professional video cameras have fans to cool their electronics, and no IBIS.

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

I agree that IBIS can have its uses. Thing is, anybody who wants IBIS on a non-IS lens can get one of the upcoming Panasonic L-mount bodies, or a Sony body like you have. There's no reason why Leica should offer every permutation of features. They are available elsewhere.

The Sony A6500 is a prime example of why Leica should not offer IBIS (as currently implemented). The camera has well-documented overheating issues, only partially addressed by firmware workarounds. The "solution" that Sony implemented (letting you continue shooting with a higher noise limit, and then shutting-down the camera completely until it can cool-off) is fine for consumer cameras, but it would raise quite a holler if Leica tried it. Can you imagine the forum static: the camera has 12-stops of DR straight out of the fridge, but only 10-stops after an hour? There's a reason why Sony's excellent professional video cameras have fans to cool their electronics, and no IBIS.

Who says it has to be Sony image stabilization? 

[jaapv]

I don't think the feature is brand-specific.

[BernardC]

28 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

Who says it has to be Sony image stabilization? 

That was just an example of in-body image stabilization, based on the post I was responding to. Other brands have their own implementation of IBIS, but they all have to deal with the same fundamental issue: stabilized (floating) sensors can't have big heat sinks like fixed sensors. Panasonic skipped IBIS altogether for their high-end video SLR (GH5S).

It all boils-down to compromises, and target market. For a camera in the A6500 market, consumers want IBIS more than low noise. It's very likely that they are shooting handheld with no additional support. For a higher-end camera (like the SL or GH5S), you expect the operator to use support when they need it (gimbal, tripod, etc), but they also expect consistent IQ even if the camera has been running for a while.

Here's a typical use case. An A6500 user shoots a video of their kid's school recital. They won't notice if the image gets a bit noisier as the night progresses, but they will notice camera shake. An SL or GH5S user will be more concerned that they can't cut shots together because of a rising noise floor. They expect absolute consistency.

Thankfully, the market offers lots of options. You can buy a camera with IBIS if you want, or one without if that suits you needs better. Leica usually favours image quality over extra features, so I suspect that they will not offer IBIS until they resolve the issues that come with IBIS.

[Tailwagger]

On 1/1/2019 at 1:01 PM, bags27 said:

Leica - in 2019 we wish you would...

• Stop with the special editions already – this isn't the 90s.
• Make a Q2 - maybe even with a 35mm lens...
• Say goodbye to 1950s technology and make an M-mount camera with an EVF.
• Give your customers their moneys' worth and turn camera repairs around in days, not months. It's not impossible - everyone else can do it.

1. Keep making the special editions. I'll never buy one, but I appreciate those who do elevating the bottom line for Leica and lowering it for those of us who buy the cameras to make photographs. 

2. My guess is that this won't happen... the 35mm part... but if it did I'd be really interested in it. Far more likely to purchase a second Q than if an upgrade to a new version meant little more than getting 1.5-2x the mega pixies. 

3. This is a basic human rights issue... age discrimination, native peoples rights, etc.  Ya know... 'Unchain the gang of six (S'luxes) from the tyranny of misaligned RFs!' sorta taking it to the streets kind stuff (likely best documented by an M10). 

4. I thought I read elsewhere that this was a top priority, particularly in NA.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Tailwagger

[bags27]

1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

3. This is a basic human rights issue... age discrimination, native peoples rights, etc.  Ya know... 'Unchain the gang of six (S'luxes) from the tyranny of misaligned RFs!' sorta taking it to the streets kind stuff (likely best documented by an M10). 

Only a fellow New Englander could be both so politically tongue in cheek and yet to the point.  In fact, an M with an EVF may eventually be on the way,:

Leica M with electronic/hybrid viewfinder

"Jesko, the product manager for the M suggested that, of course, the electronic viewfinder is a nice addition for the M camera, however, they always see the rangefinder as the number one focusing system for the M. They mentioned Leica did build a prototype hybrid built in EVF M, but they put priority on the camera body design, as it made it too thick.

However, Stefan Daniel added to this, emphasizing there will always be a rangefinder version. However, they are looking at opportunities to have a second model with a built in EVF. They will never swap the rangefinder to EVF, but a second version alongside the rangefinder is very possible in the future."

Read more: https://leicarumors.com/2019/01/08/very-interesting-hints-about-future-leica-products.aspx/#ixzz5cPYuxZnD

[jaapv]

It will be a simple decision - if Leica decides that there is a profit in building such a camera, they will, if not, they won't.

[thighslapper]

On 1/6/2019 at 5:31 PM, BernardC said:

It all boils-down to compromises, and target market. For a camera in the A6500 market, consumers want IBIS more than low noise. It's very likely that they are shooting handheld with no additional support. For a higher-end camera (like the SL or GH5S), you expect the operator to use support when they need it (gimbal, tripod, etc), but they also expect consistent IQ even if the camera has been running for a while.

Here's a typical use case. An A6500 user shoots a video of their kid's school recital. They won't notice if the image gets a bit noisier as the night progresses, but they will notice camera shake. An SL or GH5S user will be more concerned that they can't cut shots together because of a rising noise floor. They expect absolute consistency.

Thankfully, the market offers lots of options. You can buy a camera with IBIS if you want, or one without if that suits you needs better. Leica usually favours image quality over extra features, so I suspect that they will not offer IBIS until they resolve the issues that come with IBIS.

..... and Sony have produced an A6400 with no IBIS, much longer record times before overheating and better high ISO. 

They (and many other manufacturers) all have the same issues of heat, size, processor power and battery life to juggle ..... and as yet the technology does not allow them to do everything without some trade-offs.  

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 1/6/2019 at 4:01 AM, CharlesL said:

As mentioned, I previously used the wi-fi card in an M240. It was more difficult to make and sustain a connection to the computer than when the card is in the SL. The M240 is all metal body. The SL is too, but it has that hump designed to help receive a GPS signal.

Thanks, however, to the suggestions. No doubt I must test with versus without a wi-fi card. At the moment, that is entangled with testing whether another full charge or two of the new battery will improve the situation. Also, I am not shooting a lot at this particular time — but I will report back.

 

Why on earth would you want to use a wi-fi card in a camera that already has wi-fi?

Gordon

[CharlesL]

4 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Why on earth would you want to use a wi-fi card in a camera that already has wi-fi?

The FlashAir-Snowy setup works more smoothly than the Leica setup for transfer to a Windows PC. Anyway, I removed the FlashAir card because of the battery problem. So far, the short battery life is unchanged despite all the power-saving options being on.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

10 minutes ago, CharlesL said:

The FlashAir-Snowy setup works more smoothly than the Leica setup for transfer to a Windows PC. Anyway, I removed the FlashAir card because of the battery problem. So far, the short battery life is unchanged despite all the power-saving options being on.

OK. Then there's an issue. I get 3-600 shots per battery and I have none of the battery saving stuff on except a 2 minute sleep function.

Gordon

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