CL review

[Jaclo]

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Do his comments about using M lenses on the CL make any sense.  I think he basically said its not worth it because the M lenses are not designed for the CL sensor.  Makes no sense to me.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Jaclo
grammer correction

[PeterGA]

SL lenses work better on the SL than M mount lenses. By 'better' I mean, at the very least you get autofocus and better optics as well. By 'better' optics I mean lenses which have higher contrast and are capable of resolving the coming higher megapixel sensors and don't 'need' slanted special micro prism surrounds at the edges of a sensor to 'work'. I suspect the same is true for dedicated apc lenses - although I can't comment because atm I don't have any.

None of this is a 'dig' at M lenses or the M camera- I have plenty of both - but the amenity and utility of the M and its optics is being challenged (if not superseded)  by alternative tools. M lenses on a CL ( I have found ) work very well from 35mm and up - the WATE loses much of its wide angle capability due to crop factor - as do all wides really...I can't compare the Leica M wide for the CL - because it is unavailable and has been for some time.

 

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[nicci78]

For wide angle : 11-23mm is absolutely excellent. No need for a slow manual focus WA M lens. 

However a very fast TL 14 or 16mm (FF 21 or 24mm) will be much appreciated. 

 

Sadly M lenses below FF 21-24mm makes no sense with a CL : too expensive, too big,  too slow and not wide enough. 

All TL lenses have no M equivalent (focal length and/or aperture), except Summilux-TL 35mm 

21, 28, 50 and 75mm M lenses offer unique fields of view. With theirs in between focal length : 32, 42, 75 and 112mm

 

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by nicci78

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, PeterGA said:

SL lenses work better on the SL than M mount lenses. By 'better' I mean, at the very least you get autofocus and better optics as well. By 'better' optics I mean lenses which have higher contrast and are capable of resolving the coming higher megapixel sensors and don't 'need' slanted special micro prism surrounds at the edges of a sensor to 'work'. I suspect the same is true for dedicated apc lenses - although I can't comment because atm I don't have any.

None of this is a 'dig' at M lenses or the M camera- I have plenty of both - but the amenity and utility of the M and its optics is being challenged (if not superseded)  by alternative tools. M lenses on a CL ( I have found ) work very well from 35mm and up - the WATE loses much of its wide angle capability due to crop factor - as do all wides really...I can't compare the Leica M wide for the CL - because it is unavailable and has been for some time.

 

Let's summarize: this so-called review is jjust an opinion piece, and a rather ill-considered and biased one at that.

[PeterGA]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Let's summarize: this so-called review is jjust an opinion piece, and a rather ill-considered and biased one at that.

Yeah I think a good summary (maybe ill-considered is a bit harsh) but I don't agree with a lot of his comparison comments. I read his written review before this youtube thing was published - I think the youtube review was not one of his better efforts- but to an extent, video is a 'performance piece' as well as information. The youtube world is full of 'stuff' about SoCaNikon and other camera types - Leica doesn't feature much - and a lot of the reviews on Leica are by people who are largely - clueless, despite being 'followed' by (literally) X100,000's subscribers...and the dominant takeway is always - "Leica product XYZ is very expensive...." and then thisis manufactured at teh highest levels and then wow what great results and then...but this is very expensive and camera ABC has more of this or that or the other thing...

 

So credit to Thorsten for being out there with positive's to say about Leica in general...the dress code stuff and expensive this and that lifestyle promotion is amusing.

[PeterGA]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

For wide angle : 11-23mm is absolutely excellent. No need for a slow manual focus WA M lens. 

However a very fast TL 14 or 16mm (FF 21 or 24mm) will be much appreciated. 

 

Sadly M lenses below FF 21-24mm makes no sense with a CL : too expensive, too big,  too slow and not wide enough. 

All TL lenses have no M equivalent (focal length and/or aperture), except Summilux-TL 35mm 

21, 28, 50 and 75mm M lenses offer unique fields of view. With theirs in between focal length : 32, 42, 75 and 112mm

 

 

Yes a few on here have commented on the 11-23 as a great lens it is the first I would buy - unfortunately it seems to be on permanent 'back order'....which is somewhat disappointing. My Cl is consigned to being used as a 'lens' pony for now - mainly with 90-280SL (autofocus and reach) and occasionaly the 50 SL lux as a 'pretend 75 lux -:)

[nicci78]

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being in back order is a good sign for a lens. Sitting on the shelf for the sake of collecting years of dust is not. 

Good luck to get one. Plenty of 11-23 in France. Wetzlar is not too far away. 

 

The 55-135mm is also extraordinary. Very nice : light and compact. Sharper than APO 75 90 or 135.

With a very attractive modern Leica rendering

Edited January 4, 2019 by nicci78

[PeterGA]

40 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

being in back order is a good sign for a lens. Sitting on the shelf for the sake of collecting years of dust is not. 

Good luck to get one. Plenty of 11-23 in France. Wetzlar is not too far away. 

 

The 55-135mm is also extraordinary. Very nice : light and compact. Sharper than APO 75 90 or 135.

With a very attractive modern Leica rendering

@nicci78 thanks for your opinion on the lenses - big recommendation on the 55-135 as well...I was thinking the 60Macro might be an interesting lens - any opinion? Strange that the 11-23 is available in Paris but not elsewhere...I am in Sydney though too far away for a one lens shopping trip😀

 

atb

Pete

[lct]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

[...] The 55-135mm is also extraordinary. Very nice : light and compact. Sharper than APO 75 90 or 135. [...]

Are you sure it is not the sardine that blocked the port of Marseille?
https://curiousprovence.com/curious-sardine-blocked-port-marseille/
Just kidding. The TL 55-135 is bulkier than the M 135/3.4 and is outperformed by the latter at all apertures if memory serves me well but i may be wrong as i have no experience with that zooming sardine... oops lens .

[nicci78]

au contraire lct. the TL 55-135 is at least as good as the Telyt and it is a zoom. 

almost same weight 500g (547g with hood) for the APO 55-135 and 450g for the APO Telyt 135mm. But with a CL you have to add the 70g of the compulsory L-Adapter-M. It looks to me as a draw. But the TL zoom has a much better close focus performance and distance : 1m vs 1.5m for the M 135

 

The 55-135 is also a little bit better than the APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm @60mm. But I chose to keep the macro one. Because 16 cm minimum focusing distance is so much better than 100 cm. 

BTW PeterGA the Super-Vario 11-23mm is available right now pretty much everywhere in Europe. Leica is a German company, therefore an European one. It is perfectly normal to have everything in stock in your own market. But I chose to keep the Q because 28mm is wide enough and f/3.5-4.5 is not fast enough for my wide angle usage

[raadoo]

8 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

au contraire lct. the TL 55-135 is at least as good as the Telyt and it is a zoom. 

almost same weight 500g (547g with hood) for the APO 55-135 and 450g for the APO Telyt 135mm. But with a CL you have to add the 70g of the compulsory L-Adapter-M. It looks to me as a draw. But the TL zoom has a much better close focus performance and distance : 1m vs 1.5m for the M 135

 

The 55-135 is also a little bit better than the APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm @60mm. But I chose to keep the macro one. Because 16 cm minimum focusing distance is so much better than 100 cm. 

BTW PeterGA the Super-Vario 11-23mm is available right now pretty much everywhere in Europe. Leica is a German company, therefore an European one. It is perfectly normal to have everything in stock in your own market. But I chose to keep the Q because 28mm is wide enough and f/3.5-4.5 is not fast enough for my wide angle usage

Wait, the 11-23 is in stock?! Where?

• Leica Shop Vienna says Pre-Order
• Leica Store Mayfair says Email Me When Available
• Richard Caplan says On Order
• Red Dot Cameras says out of stock (once it's in cart)
• Ffordes says Pre-Order
• Photo Suffren says Not In Stock
• Meister Camera Hamburg says Out Of Stock
• Leica Store Munich says Pre-Order
• Kamera Express says Temporarily Sold Out
• Leica Store Berlin says Please Ask For Delivery Date
• Photohaus.de says Not In Stock

[nicci78]

I only make a quick check : FNAC (biggest calera reseller in France) has one, Elle et lui photographie (second biggest Leica reseller in France) has some in stock. Such as Parisian Leica stores 

But you are right there is maybe a stock problem in several Leica distributors around the world. 

 

[Ricard0]

21 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I only make a quick check : FNAC (biggest calera reseller in France) has one, Elle et lui photographie (second biggest Leica reseller in France) has some in stock. Such as Parisian Leica stores 

But you are right there is maybe a stock problem in several Leica distributors around the world. 

 

I decided to order the 11-23 yesterday and ran into the same problem (I'm in the U.S.A.).  But late in the day yesterday after checking Leica Store Miami several times throughout the day, they suddenly showed "In Stock".   I immediately ordered the lens, which is en route to me and will be here Monday.   The site now shows Out of Stock again, so apparently either one arrived with the day's shipment or someone cancelled an order.  I know this doesn't help you any, but the point is they ARE out there, you just need to keep looking.

Now I'm on the hunt for a 55-135, which is ALSO out of stock everywhere I've looked here in the U.S.

 

Good luck!

Edited January 4, 2019 by Ricard0
corrected sentence flow.

[lct]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

au contraire lct. the TL 55-135 is at least as good as the Telyt and it is a zoom. [...] 

Well the 55-135 "sardine" does pretty well for a crop zoom lens there is little doubt about that but the Japanese pupil is not surpassing the German master yet as far as MTF charts are concerned at least: 
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2zwSccc/0/a256d32c/X3/i-2zwSccc-X3.jpg

[Bill W]

24 minutes ago, Ricard0 said:

I decided to order the 11-23 yesterday and ran into the same problem (I'm in the U.S.A.).  But late in the day yesterday after checking Leica Store Miami several times throughout the day, they suddenly showed "In Stock".   I immediately ordered the lens, which is en route to me and will be here Monday.   The site now shows Out of Stock again, so apparently either one arrived with the day's shipment or someone cancelled an order.  I know this doesn't help you any, but the point is they ARE out there, you just need to keep looking.

Now I'm on the hunt for a 55-135, which is ALSO out of stock everywhere I've looked here in the U.S.

 

Good luck!

There is a 55-135 on ebay. That is where I got my 11-23 and 55-135 a few months back. Someone was selling all of their TL and lens stuff. Bought both lens at the same time for an additional discount and they were both in mint condition. At the time they were the only ones that had come up on ebay. FWIW

[Ricard0]

40 minutes ago, Bill W said:

There is a 55-135 on ebay. That is where I got my 11-23 and 55-135 a few months back. Someone was selling all of their TL and lens stuff. Bought both lens at the same time for an additional discount and they were both in mint condition. At the time they were the only ones that had come up on ebay. FWIW

thanks.  will check ebay today!

 

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Well the 55-135 "sardine" does pretty well for a crop zoom lens there is little doubt about that but the Japanese pupil is not surpassing the German master yet as far as MTF charts are concerned at least: 
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2zwSccc/0/a256d32c/X3/i-2zwSccc-X3.jpg

hopefully I do not take picture with MTF charts, btw doesn't they look pretty similar ? More astigmatism on the 55-135 maybe, according to the chart. But not something noticeable in pictures. 

sadly no MTF of APO-Telyt with APS-C sensor. But sure the M 135 is a little bit faster, but way more expensive, without zoom ability

And what is the silly reference to sardine ? Of course it is not german, not even german design, a Konica-Minolta one apparently. Same as the two other TL zooms. But they are all quite excellent. Except for sun stars, which are pretty nasty with these japanese leica lenses. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by nicci78

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Well the 55-135 "sardine" does pretty well for a crop zoom lens there is little doubt about that but the Japanese pupil is not surpassing the German master yet as far as MTF charts are concerned at least: 
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2zwSccc/0/a256d32c/X3/i-2zwSccc-X3.jpg

That is a pretty silly comparison. MTF curves cannot be compared across different formats. I don't care one whit which lens is "better" but this is not the way to find an answer.

[lct]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

That is a pretty silly comparison. MTF curves cannot be compared across different formats. [...]

Really? How do you compare them then? Just curious as i've been doing those silly comparisons since my first APS cameras in 2004 so unless you've got a better idea to suggest, i will go on using those useful (to me) tools of you don't mind.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

It's a free world (partly   ), so use whatever works for you. However, MTF curves are a limited tool, measuring contrast response in one plane of focus only. You even struggle comparing between brands, let alone formats. OTF diagrams are a bit more useful, but complicated and expensive to make. In the end the only useful way to compare lenses is to look at photographs. Failing that, read trusted reviewers ( the Sean Reid and Erwin Puts type) and base your conceptions on those.