Exposure variance, viewfinder or screen.

[SMAL]

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Am 18.12.2018 um 10:28 schrieb kimaldis:

 

I have a degree in photography and nearly half a century of professional  experience.

Then you should be well aware of the differences from different metering modes.

Just as a hint your camera is not faulty.

[kimaldis]

6 hours ago, SMAL said:

Then you should be well aware of the differences from different metering modes.

I'm perfectly aware, thank you. My misunderstanding, though, was about how this particular camera works not about exposure methods per se but you're either incapable of seeing this or you're being deliberately obtuse for the sake of being unpleasant. 

I'm done with this now, it's getting stupidly out of hand. Thanks to those who responded in a civil manner, and to those that gave sensible answers. You were genuinely helpful.

[Chaemono]

Guys, are you serious? You want to end this discussion before the Raw-file-comparisons-Z7-α7R III-M10-with-the-same-lens fun has even started? I can’t believe it. Come on guys, it’s Christmas. Tis the season to be jolly Fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la.

[M11 for me]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb kimaldis:

I'm perfectly aware, thank you. My misunderstanding, though, was about how this particular camera works not about exposure methods per se but you're either incapable of seeing this or you're being deliberately obtuse for the sake of being unpleasant. 

I'm done with this now, it's getting stupidly out of hand. Thanks to those who responded in a civil manner, and to those that gave sensible answers. You were genuinely helpful.

I have some difficulties to understand your reaction now. From your initial post I really got the impression that you did not read any instruction manual and you were not aware of LV and OVF not using the same methods. Then in your initial post you really give me the impression as if you did not understand that there are different metering systems at all. Then you tell us that you have a degree and working for decades. Please be a bit more patient with us. I am not such a fast thinker.

[Chaemono]

None of us are fast thinkers here. I had to think very hard about what kimaldis' motivation may have been to start this thread and I've come to the conclusion that it was done with the noblest intentions. He must have read post #27 here https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/291766-z7-with-m-lenses-vs-m10-image-thread/?page=2 and was kind enough to provide a topic where those Raw file comparisons Z7 vs. α7 III vs. M10 with the same lens and Center Weighted metering can be posted. So, in the true Christmas spirit here we go. 

I did get a grey card as Paul suggested in the other thread but no color checker chart. I didn't have much time today, so these are just handheld, AWB by the cameras, and Center Weighted metering. I put the cameras in A Mode but not at base ISO. I set EV to -0.7 on each. These three here are just to warm up. I'll find better scenes with Highlights and Shadows.

 

Z7 + 50 Noctilux - opened in LR with everything set to off and exported as JPEG. NEF file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g52469095-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=QoOnP7qDEUBmxidCGwIfSv7AN73TdwB-sRGdzDBKV6A=

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ISO 400 f/0.95 in A Mode with EV set -0.7

 

α7R III + 50 Noctilux - opened in LR with everything set to off and exported as JPEG. ARW file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g167381787-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=FhKWK5PKE_BpSBHKyo5H-bLWbGEb3EijLOkBrdtqoks=

ISO 500 f/0.95 in A Mode with EV set to -0.7

 

M10 + 50 Noctilux - opened in LR with everything set to off and exported as JPEG. DNG file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g450673844-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=l5-6JsT_nXEYpDQ70GNMIB3aJaSyS2VJgSD7ODY-o_Q=

ISO 640 f/0.95 in A Mode with EV set to -0.7

 

[schattenundlicht]

Oh well, circumventing your rather boring comparisons was easy when you restricted yourself to your own, or to fittingly dedicated threads. Now that you have started hijacking other threads, this will be incentive enough for me to use this forum‘s ignore function for the very first time...

[Chaemono]

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“Stop posting links to Raw files, you SOB. Let us roam freely and spread our BS.”  I’ll post some more just for you. 😀

[Chaemono]

Tis the season to be jolly Fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la. Let's paraphrase kimaldis' topic to 'Exposure variance, Z7 vs. α7R III vs. M10 with Center Weighted Metering using the same lens' and do a Christmas edition. I had a hard time setting each camera's WB with a grey card as Paul suggested so I adjusted them in post to try to match in the JPEGs posted here. Also, the profile one uses when comparing is very important if one doesn't use a color checker chart, again, as Paul suggested and I settled on the Adobe Color profile in LR for each in the JPEGs here. This makes them look pretty close in terms of color and WB and allows for the difference in Exposure to come through more clearly. 

Base ISO or close was set on each camera, meaning ISO 64 for the Z7, ISO 100 for the α7R III, and ISO 200 for the M10. They were mounted on a tripod with IBIS off, shot in A Mode with EV set to -7, and the shutter was released using each camera's cellphone app.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-43xkbZ/

 

Z7 + 50 Noctilux NEF file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g259426971-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=avZakvWzRDqXb1sblNVCVmW0cuW6qdBt5L-OKBfWhXM=

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ISO 64 f/0.95 @ 1/4 sec. shot in A mode with EV -0.7 (Center Weighted metering)

 

α7R III + 50 Noctilux ARW file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g526637378-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=Fu6JzbVh7mygkmKhA7V279R1g5ImlM4avOe82ICAmvQ=

ISO 100 f/0.95 @ 1/4 sec. shot in A mode with EV -0.7 (Center Weighted metering)

 

M10 + 50 Noctilux DNG file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g520613365-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=bw_q2A5p0ye69PCkrTD0XJytW3GAFVCkfAeMAhk9e-M=

ISO 200 f/0.95 @ 1/6 sec. shot in A mode with EV -0.7 (Center Weighted metering)

[pico]

I suspect the reading from the reflective part of the shutter is in err.

[Chaemono]

Centered Weighted metering using live view and using the optical finder where exposure is always measured off the patterned shutter blades before the shutter opens gives the exact same shutter speed. So, no, it’s not in err. You sound like you want to see more Raw files. I’ll post some more just for you. 

[pico]

On 12/20/2018 at 5:32 PM, SMAL said:

Then you should be well aware of the differences from different metering modes
|Just as a hint your camera is not faulty.

Just a hint that that the manufacturer may have simply f*cked up.

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Tis the season to be jolly Fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la. Let's paraphrase kimaldis' topic to 'Exposure variance, Z7 vs. α7R III vs. M10 with Center Weighted Metering using the same lens' and do a Christmas edition. I had a hard time setting each camera's WB with a grey card as Paul suggested so I adjusted them in post to try to match in the JPEGs posted here. Also, the profile one uses when comparing is very important if one doesn't use a color checker chart, again, as Paul suggested and I settled on the Adobe Color profile in LR for each in the JPEGs here. This makes them look pretty close in terms of color and WB and allows for the difference in Exposure to come through more clearly. 

Base ISO or close was set on each camera, meaning ISO 64 for the Z7, ISO 100 for the α7R III, and ISO 200 for the M10. They were mounted on a tripod with IBIS off, shot in A Mode with EV set to -7, and the shutter was released using each camera's cellphone app.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-43xkbZ/

 

Z7 + 50 Noctilux NEF file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g259426971-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=avZakvWzRDqXb1sblNVCVmW0cuW6qdBt5L-OKBfWhXM=

ISO 64 f/0.95 @ 1/4 sec. shot in A mode with EV -0.7 (Center Weighted metering)

 

α7R III + 50 Noctilux ARW file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g526637378-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=Fu6JzbVh7mygkmKhA7V279R1g5ImlM4avOe82ICAmvQ=

ISO 100 f/0.95 @ 1/4 sec. shot in A mode with EV -0.7 (Center Weighted metering)

 

M10 + 50 Noctilux DNG file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g520613365-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=bw_q2A5p0ye69PCkrTD0XJytW3GAFVCkfAeMAhk9e-M=

ISO 200 f/0.95 @ 1/6 sec. shot in A mode with EV -0.7 (Center Weighted metering)

Errr... What have shots on Nikons and Sonys to do with a question about variance of different modes on a Leica? This post is just a waste of bandwidth in this context.

[Chaemono]

OP in #5 - Quote

“OK, that makes sense. I had Multi-field. There's still quite a difference even when set to centre weighted. The difference really is quite marked. I'd say, depending on the scene, it can underexpose by one to two stops when using the optical viewfinder. Not really great.”

OP in #8 - Quote

“I don't see that as at all strange. Difficult, yes but scenes with widely varying luminance range aren't that uncommon....A quality camera should be able to deal with this.”

Jaap, I disagree. They are experiments that go right to the heart of the issue under discussion in this thread. The Sony and the Nikon are our control cameras (definition of control group: the standard to which comparisons are made in an experiment). The only way to check how well or how poorly a “quality camera” exposes “in scenes with widely varying luminance range” is to do these experiments IMO. And it’s important to keep WB and colors as similar as possible (grey card and color checker chart recommended) in order to isolate ‘the independent variable.’

I can start another thread to discuss exactly that. But wouldn’t the two threads then be merged anyway?

Edited December 25, 2018 by Chaemono

[jaapv]

No. I might merge it with some other comparison threads to keep the forum orgnized.But I would advise you not to sprinkle these comparisons randomly into every second thread. People like to read about Leicas in this forum.

I really don't think that a simple question like this one needs "control camera's", nor that everything needs to be experimented to death.

[LocalHero1953]

.

Edited December 25, 2018 by LocalHero1953

[Chaemono]

 

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

No. I might merge it with some other comparison threads to keep the forum orgnized.But I would advise you not to sprinkle these comparisons randomly into every second thread. People like to read about Leicas in this forum.

I really don't think that a simple question like this one needs "control camera's", nor that everything needs to be experimented to death.

Got it. I’ll start another thread. Move it to whatever section you like. What I do find interesting in the examples above is the detail recovery in the Highlights as one pulls them back in post. Larger pixels seem somehow better here. I’ll post the crops in that other thread. 

BTW, it’s not every other thread. Only when unsubstantiated claims are being made, in this case by someone who claims to hold a photography degree, and this becomes a repeated pattern over and over, again. Good luck trying to counter them verbally. We’ll be moving in circles for months and have been there before. I do appreciate and like to read your and others verbal rebuttals here, but after months of countering the same attacks again and again it becomes tiresome. I wonder how many readers who come here to be informed are being turned off by this.  

[mujk]

Actually, the M10 doesn't just have different metering modes. It has two completely different metering systems. The one used with the OVF, metering off the grey area of the closed shutter, is essentially the same as the one introduced in the M6. It is in no way "intelligent" and you will have to learn how to interpret the metering result. The other metering system works only in LV when the shutter is open and uses the readout from the image sensor. It has three different metering modes: spot, center-weighted and multi-field. None of these is exactly the same as the OVF metering mode. So, as already mentioned, unless you have a very uniformely lit subject, all four metering modes are likely to give different exposure results.

[schattenundlicht]

On 12/25/2018 at 9:02 PM, mujk said:

Actually, the M10 doesn't just have different metering modes. It has two completely different metering systems. The one used with the OVF, metering off the grey area of the closed shutter, is essentially the same as the one introduced in the M6. It is in no way "intelligent" and you will have to learn how to interpret the metering result. The other metering system works only in LV when the shutter is open and uses the readout from the image sensor. It has three different metering modes: spot, center-weighted and multi-field. None of these is exactly the same as the OVF metering mode. So, as already mentioned, unless you have a very uniformely lit subject, all four metering modes are likely to give different exposure results.

+1 Very concisely put.