Dismayed by the M10-D

[jonoslack]

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29 minutes ago, adan said:

Jono: additive - in that each step in the lag adds to the previous total, creating more and more lag.

For EVF lag = X, human reaction time = Y, and shutter mechanism lag = Z

 

Well Andy - I'll give in and admit that circumstantial evidence is on your side (in that nobody has ever taken a good photo using an EVF)

. . . . . . and have a fantastic Christmas! . . . . and a prosperous and zingy new year

Best

Jono

[robert blu]

Interesting video Fabior, thanks. But...not easy to be able to use rhythm and anticipation for a good photo! much exercise and practice are necessary!

robert

[scott kirkpatrick]

On 12/24/2018 at 10:41 AM, pgk said:

FWIW. My problem with EVFs is that they offer yet another secondary interpretation of the world. We already live in such a virtual world and I do want to be able to see some things directly rather than through an electronic interpretation. Perhaps this is an 'old school' photographic view, but it is mine. I have to interpret images though a computer screen enough as it is, without being offered yet another digitally interpreted view. I say this from the point of view of a user of RF, dSLR, EVF and LF View cameras .....

Well, it's pleasant to fantasize making an image with your hands even more directly.  Roll up your darkroom wagon to a significant spot, apply the wet emulsion to the glass plate, insert it into the prepared, focused camera, watch the scene with both eyes, at the critical moment remove the lens cap, count to as many seconds as needed, cover, remove, develop, fix, wash and dry everything.  Print under sunlight to taste.  As long as you got all of this done 150 years ago, there might be viewers for your picture today.  Little that the rest of us do will last that long.

[pgk]

1 hour ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Well, it's pleasant to fantasize making an image with your hands even more directly.

Indeed, there is a great deal to be said for slowing down and getting back to basics. Although I thought I would not shoot LF again, I just received a box of 5"x4" Ilford film and will be using it as soon as I have appropriate adapters for a variety of LF lenses including Leitz, Suter, Wray, TTH, Beck and more. I just bought Capt. Owen Wheeler's Turtle lens - a fairly early and curious telephoto lens of which I have as yet not found a great deal of information about. 

[Tailwagger]

Nothing in modern times mandates that one works with less care or greater speed, though no doubt even the slowest of our current crop of tools certainly enables, if not encourages, this.  All this says to me is that while discipline might not be required to generate a photograph, there is an even higher premium placed on thoughtfulness for producing a worthwhile one. 

[adan]

Scott - which is more analogous to that 150-year-old view camera with its flat focusing screen? On which one one can "contemplate" the picture and its spatial composition, focus in the center, focus in the corners, pull out a magnifier if needed?

An EVF's (or LCD's) flat screen? Or a rangefinder's window?

Dry-plates and film sped up the chemical process, of course, but what really kicked "right-now, snap-shot" photography into high gear was throwing away the screen altogether. The first Kodak rollfilm camera had no viewing mechanism at all; one just pointed it in the general direction of the subject, and counted on a widish-angle lens to include what was needed - focus was "fixed":

http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_760118

The Kodak No. 2 et seq. added Leica-like window viewfinders (sometimes in reflex form) for framing. Press cameras and the Leica II eventually restored visual focusing - with coupled rangefinders on the top.

Later on, SLRs with complex, noisy, heavy mechanisms brought "screen viewing" to small cameras - along with lag and interrupted viewing. EVFs are not substitutes for an RF - they are "improved" SLR viewing that reduce the issues of weight, complexity, vibration and noise, but not lag and interrupted viewing. At least not yet.

There has always been room for both "screen" and "window" viewing in photography. They have different strengths and weaknesses, and one has to choose which works best for one's own goals. Leica (and a few erstwhile competitors who have come and gone) has kept alive the "manual window" option for those of us who need it.

 

[mujk]

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On 12/24/2018 at 12:44 AM, Tailwagger said:

Precisely!  No one disputes the advantages of an M for certain sorts of activity.  What I fail to understand is why  some seem to believe that the only legitimate use of 70 years of optics is inextricably tied to it.  

The only serious technical argument I can make to myself against an EVF only M mount camera is the absence of auto aperture control which means the need to open and close the lens for truly accurate focusing.  From my early experiences screwing up focus with the SEM21 via EVF when at smaller apertures, its not hard to imagine that for some users this aspect of operation could be a deal breaker. But OTOH, the situation is no different when mounting M glass on an SL or CL or A7R, what have you. Its a price I'm personally willing to pay given I gain an SL level EVF,  battery life more akin to the Q, no need for an external wart of a finder, far shorter blackout period, perhaps multiple native metering modes as well as an e-shutter for shooting wide open in bright light, not to mention all the other items previously discussed and oh yeah, I get to keep the set of lenses I know and love.  

I already started to wonder why no-one had mentioned this very obvious fact before in this thread. At least for me this is a real show stopper, except for really wide angle lenses with a very large DOF (I use a Viso with my SEM21). But for longer focal lengths I really want to know where my plane of focus is, even when shooting at smaller apertures. So what I would like to see is an M with an OVF and/or an EVF that has an electronic rangefinder, i.e. replacing the mechanical rangefinder with an electronic one, possibly completely without other moving parts than the cam position sensor.

[lct]

I don't feel any need to open and close aperture with modern EVFs personally. At all aperture up to f/8 more or less, focusing stop down is more accurate with image magnification since focus shift is not at play there. It is my experience with lenses from 21mm (15mm on APS)  to 135mm lenses at least. Focus peaking is another story. 

[adan]

1 hour ago, mujk said:

But for longer focal lengths I really want to know where my plane of focus is, even when shooting at smaller apertures.

You can't do that with the Leica rangefinder/viewfinder? Really? These folks didn't appear to have that problem:

Garry Winogrand: https://fraenkelgallery.com/portfolios/the-animals

W. Eugene Smith (Canon RF, probably 85 or 135): https://collections.artsmia.org/art/94110/pride-street-pittsburgh-w-eugene-smith

Henri Cartier-Bresson: https://www.moma.org/collection/works/49467

Me (135 wide open - M10, built-in finder, cropped to about 200mm for this thread) :

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Edited December 26, 2018 by adan

[PeterGA]

 This is what HCB said of his photographic shooting style...

 

“André Breton taught me to let my lens scour the rubble of the unconscious and of chance.”

the Leica (then) was the best tool available to him for his walk around 'snaps on the sly' later renamed in typical American style 'The Decisive Moment'

a phrase coined in a Cardinals memoirs in early 18th century btw and introduced to HCB by his editor- in 1952..

HCB himself was known to have an extreme antipathy to the marketing meme - decisive moment - eschewing references to it and turning his back on the notion that had far surpassed the original marketing cachet and intent - underlined by Matisse's penning of the phrase on the dustjacket of the American version of the book.

why? - see the opening quote to this post - the notion belittled HCB's philosophy AND talent - pared down to the banality of amateur copy cats - it boils down to making a big deal out of freezing action and then pretending to make a bigger deal ( a nonsense really) out of a moment in time as if it was the only moment - a point HCB and his editors ( still today) ridiculed.

 

but hey let's make something out of nothing - and build a religion about it.

[lct]

Not to enter a philosophical debate but as seen from HCB's country, the "instant décisif" had less to do with any American (or French) style than with an European philosophy called "existentialism" and was indeed the main basis of his works. As far as i can remember, HCB never stopped to repeat that what is important in photography is to catch the decisive moment, to the point that he was less interested in the photograph itself than in the catching action he used to say. FWIW.

[mujk]

9 hours ago, adan said:

You can't do that with the Leica rangefinder/viewfinder? Really? These folks didn't appear to have that problem:

Garry Winogrand: https://fraenkelgallery.com/portfolios/the-animals

W. Eugene Smith (Canon RF, probably 85 or 135): https://collections.artsmia.org/art/94110/pride-street-pittsburgh-w-eugene-smith

Henri Cartier-Bresson: https://www.moma.org/collection/works/49467

Me (135 wide open - M10, built-in finder, cropped to about 200mm for this thread) :

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Sorry for not being clear enough. This was exactly my point. With the rangefinder I know where the focus is (within the precision of the rangefinder system), but using the EVF for focussing when stopped down to e.g. f8 I have a hard time to do that quickly. So for me an EVF-only M is not really interesting.

[lct]

19 minutes ago, mujk said:

With the rangefinder I know where the focus is (within the precision of the rangefinder system) [...]

You know where the focus is at the place of the focus patch but you have to recompose after that and your shot can be out of focus then due to focus shift and/or field curvature eventually. I have not this problem with modern EVFs and image magnification but the whole focusing process is indeed slower than with a rangefinder. 

[adan]

mujk - received and understood.

PeterGA - Religion, hardly. Not even philosophy. I just find that pictures that achieve "simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression" - whether my own or others' - rise above the herd. "The decisive moment" takes up less space; consider it an abbreviation.

That quote comes from HCB's introduction to Images à la Sauvette/The Decisive Moment, to be found here.

http://fotoroom.co/decisive-moment-henri-cartier-bresson/

Perhaps lct has access to the original French, so as to check the translation.

[jaapv]

Actually, this whole debate is slightly distasteful to me as it reduces the ability and artistry of the photographer to his gear.

Great (action) photographs have been made and will be made using rangefinders, but also using SLR cameras  (sports photography, for instance) and EVF ones.  The only question is whether the tool fits the user. Which is highly subjective.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

"...........The only question is whether the tool fits the user."

In a nutshell.......well said jaapv.

[lct]

2 hours ago, adan said:

[...] PeterGA - Religion, hardly. Not even philosophy. I just find that pictures that achieve "simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression" - whether my own or others' - rise above the herd. "The decisive moment" takes up less space; consider it an abbreviation.

That quote comes from HCB's introduction to Images à la Sauvette/The Decisive Moment, to be found here.

http://fotoroom.co/decisive-moment-henri-cartier-bresson/

Perhaps lct has access to the original French, so as to check the translation.

In French:
« Photographier: c'est dans un même instant et en une fraction de seconde reconnaître un fait et l'organisation rigoureuse de formes perçues visuellement qui expriment et signifient ce fait. »

Another one:
« Je m'amuserais tout autant s'il n'y avait pas de film dans l'appareil. Pour moi la grande jouissance est d'être devant un sujet qui s'impose à moi et d'avoir appuyé au bon moment. Question: Quel est le bon moment justement pour vous? Réponse: C'est un lien entre le (silence) et le sujet qu'on sent intuitivement et une composition rigoureuse, une géométrie qui vous surprend et ça c'est une fraction de seconde et c'est le seul moment de création ». 

Free translation:
I would have fun just as much if there was no film in the camera. For me the great enjoyment is to be in front of a subject who imposes on me and to have pressed the shutter button at the right moment. Question: What is the right moment precisely to you. Answer: It is a link between the (silence) and the subject that one feels intuitively and a rigourous composition, a geometry which surprises you, and this in a fraction of second and it is the only moment of creation.
https://youtu.be/CqsOYsZlPX4

In English:
« Photography as I conceive it, well, it’s a drawing — immediate sketch done with intuition and you can’t correct it. If you have to correct it, it’s the next picture. But life is very fluid. Well, sometimes the pictures disappear and there’s nothing you can do. You can’t tell the person, “Oh, please smile again. Do that gesture again.” Life is once, forever. »
https://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/21/cartier-bresson-there-are-no-maybes/?_r=0

Edited December 27, 2018 by lct

[tom0511]

As a user of both RF and EVF I believe RF feels closer to subject and reality, but after having used it for over 20 years I am also annoyed by focus problems for faster and longer lenses.

Thus I mainly use it for 21-50mm range, and I often use not the fastest lenses because I feel I cant nail focus reliable with a 50/.95 or 90/2.0, at least for anything nonstatic.

If I use EVF then I usually use it with AF because I think its faster for most subjects compared to manual focus. (Except static subjects where it doesnt matter anyways)

 

[Tailwagger]

On 12/24/2018 at 12:31 AM, adan said:

OK - if you are brave enough to come back for a second helping, I respect that. Sincerely. 👌

As to my own example: geez - photos are like magic tricks. Once you explain them, the magic goes away. However....

It's an internet forum. There is no brave here, quite the opposite.  Perhaps, I was too subtle in my previous reply that we just let it lay, but as you didn't, after allowing for the peace of the holidays, yeah, I'm back again with what I hope will prove to be a few closing remarks.

Explanations? Sigh. If you have to make them, there never was any magic to begin with. You don't consider my example to capture a singular moment. I do. Not a magical one nor a scene of profound social importance, but unusual and fleeting nevertheless. Go back and actually look at the expressions far left and far right. Then all in between.  Outright frown, subtle sneer,  neutral+ , growing smile, full open mouthed grin. An orderly emotional progression right across the frame.  Set, as it so happens, amid the mad scramble and chaos that is a Kinetic Sculpture race. Opposing sentiments facing each other, each side marked in foreground by its own expressionless, blank faced dummy.  Rival emotions in opposition... at a competition... on a chaotic and frankly zany battlefield.

This was the final capture in a series of five leading up to it, which were shot at progressively shallower angles coming from the right curb.  Once in the center, looking down the corridor of buildings, everything aligned.  Was that emotional sweep across the frame extent and waiting for my arrival at what I considered the ideal angle? Of course not. Where the principals frozen in their spots just waiting to hear a click so they could move on?  Hardly. Did any of this align for more than a brief second? Nope. Did the presence of bicycle in foreground, diminish the shot? Sure, but it was recognized earlier on as an unavoidable problem and resolved as best could by using it to frame the central figures.  A scene I happened across that was vaguely anticipated to produce something interesting, worked over in the moment in terms of perspective and composition which, by luck, was rewarded with an instant that, despite your assessment, I continue to consider unusual and unlikely.

Now perhaps you don't appreciate the notion of a subtle motif buried within what admittedly is a complicated scene, but then I was raised on JS Bach, not HC Bresson.  Or maybe you find, as I do to some degree,  you just cant get past a nagging feeling that despite any underlying interest, the capture winds up looking like a promo for an amateur theatre production of Oklahoma. Fair enough. But, and this was the point under discussion, not artistic merit, does it demonstrate an ability to capture a unique moment where elements come together only briefly? It damn well does.  And one that was taken, quite consciously, with an M10 while looking through an EVF.  

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[Chaemono]

I consciously went out tonight and just used the window with the patch to capture scenes at the Christmas market, that’s right, to my surprise it continues. It used to be that all the booths would get torn down after the 23rd of December. Go figure. It’s probably because of all those Dutch coming across the border. But that’s beside the point. I wanted to move from booth to booth as much as possible and photograph them with shadows of people in front of them. I wanted to move quickly and stealthily while still focus precisely (focus point on the booth) and get some decent composition in the pictures. Now, they could all end up just being sh!t and they probably are, I mean artistically (composition-wise probably as well as it was dark 😀). But I think that I sure nailed the focus in some and it was with one of the lenses that is more difficult to focus with the patch wide open, the 75 Noctilux (it’s meant to be used at night, I think 🤔). Plus, I liked the reach (people don’t like it when there is photographer in their face while they are out enjoying themselves in the evening). I’ll post some in the image thread later. It was good practice and a nice reminder of how refreshing using the OVF to take pictures is. The OVF rules!