Dismayed by the M10-D

[pgk]

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12 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

For other people, I quite accept that the OVF/RF retains advantages for how they shoot.

FWIW. My problem with EVFs is that they offer yet another secondary interpretation of the world. We already live in such a virtual world and I do want to be able to see some things directly rather than through an electronic interpretation. Perhaps this is an 'old school' photographic view, but it is mine. I have to interpret images though a computer screen enough as it is, without being offered yet another digitally interpreted view. I say this from the point of view of a user of RF, dSLR, EVF and LF View cameras .....

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[jonoslack]

A good opportunity to offer everyone here 

Merry Christmas

I'm off to pick up the Turkey, 

Have a great time everyone:

http://www.slack.co.uk/seasonsgreetings.html

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by jonoslack

[jaapv]

Well, even the Digilux 2 could be made to catch a moment, with some training A predictable moment, like a child on a swing, was quite possible.

 

Do we really need an M to capture this?  I used the CL...

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

10 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

A good opportunity to offer everyone here 

Merry Christmas

I'm off to pick up the Turkey, 

Have a great time everyone

That reminds me... I have to run off to the Butcher for our Turkey. We are desperately short of time--- even the Christmas tree is unfinished.  HAVE A WONDERFUL CHRISTMAS, EVERYBODY!

 

 

13 minutes ago, pgk said:

FWIW. My problem with EVFs is that they offer yet another secondary interpretation of the world. We already live in such a virtual world and I do want to be able to see some things directly rather than through an electronic interpretation. Perhaps this is an 'old school' photographic view, but it is mine. I have to interpret images though a computer screen enough as it is, without being offered yet another digitally interpreted view. I say this from the point of view of a user of RF, dSLR, EVF and LF View cameras .....

The philosophical argument is far better than the technical one

[LocalHero1953]

Turkey? 

We've been invaded by three daughters, three sons in law and six grandchildren, and no longer have a say in what the Christmas lunch is. So it's vegetarian! Since no. 2 is an excellent cook, I'm looking forward to it. 

Happy Christmas everyone! 

Edited December 24, 2018 by LocalHero1953

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb adan:

I don't consider your picture a "moment" in the photographic sense. Cartier-Bresson's "decisive moment." A picture in which many things in the frame - in motion - come together for literally a split-second, in such a way that every part of the self-assembling composition contributes to a story (to one extent or another). Not there one instant, there the next, then gone, never to be seen again.

All my pictures would get an F in this regard. 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb adan:

That is what I don't think EVFs can do. They come up too short for that instantaneous seeing/snapping-focus/shooting.

By the time one raises the M10 to one’s eye the Visoflex is on. It works for scenes where one anticipates that something might happen. One pre-focuses or keeps the shutter half pressed to avoid auto magnification as the focus wheel is turned. Focus peaking is on. One can stop down the lens a bit, too. And then the Garry Winogrand style works “You see something happening and you bang away at it. Either you get what you saw or you get something else – and whichever is better you print [keep].”

I never used the Visoflex until I got the 75 Noctilux which I use as a walk around lens wide open. With all my other Leica lenses I use the window with the patch, even with the 50 Noctilux which I almost always stop down. The OVF is so refreshing. One can take three pictures in a row as one moves the patch to find precise focus. And then one keeps whichever looks the sharpest. None of this going back and forth with magnified view and focus peaking to make sure that focus is absolutely perfect. The M10 with the OVF is like a breath of fresh air.

At the end it all comes down to practice and technique.

[Prosophos]

3 hours ago, pgk said:

To me a good photograph is one which the viewer stops to look at, often likes or is arrested by. All other considerations are secondary because if nobody is interested in more than a glance then the photograph is purely ephemeral and is worthy of little consideration because it has failed at a primary stage. Images need to make you want to look at them again before they can be thought of as anything more than the building blocks of a visual conversation.

I believe this too. In fact, I posted this in 2012:

https://prosophos.com/2012/10/29/a-good-image-should-grab-you/

(sorry for the interjection, but it’s a point I’ve always felt strongly about)

—Peter.

 

[Chuck]

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3 hours ago, pgk said:

FWIW. My problem with EVFs is that they offer yet another secondary interpretation of the world. We already live in such a virtual world and I do want to be able to see some things directly rather than through an electronic interpretation. Perhaps this is an 'old school' photographic view, but it is mine. I have to interpret images though a computer screen enough as it is, without being offered yet another digitally interpreted view. I say this from the point of view of a user of RF, dSLR, EVF and LF View cameras .....

Agree.  Let's say you are in a hotel room and want to look outside, and have a choice between looking out a window and looking at a tv screen that is receiving and transmitting an image from a tv camera mounted outside.  I would much prefer to look outside through a window rather than at an image of the outside on a tv screen. Real vs artificial.

[lucerne]

Surely, and according to one of my professors, nothing is real in philosophical terms. 😳.   I use my OVF predominantly until i mount lenses outside the standard M set. Then i have no option but to use a hot shoe viewfinder or my full EVF.   I dont really use it to ponder content .   Its for framing.  I wonder if some users are fitting R-M adaptors and dont have any rangefinder coupling, necessitating constant EVF and / or rear screen focussing.

just my thoughts.   Enjoy your Christmas feast 🥶 and get back to these issues later.  Reading them is my hobby and entertainment.

[Kwesi]

Ah, the Christmas truce! Wouldst that nations would follow our example...

[pgk]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

At the end it all comes down to practice and technique.

Well, they are a given. It all actually comes down to being able to 'see' the image. Practice and technique are what you do to be able to capture your visualisation. Happy Christmas! 

[adan]

I would just add:

1) Human "lag" and EVF "lag" and double-acting shutter "lag" are additive. We can't do much about our physiology (yet ) - we can eliminate viewfinder lag and minimize shutter lag, so that our own response time is the only factor.

(BTW, jaap, you are right on the money. When I "clocked" an M6 total response time in writing a review of the Digilux 2 (using cars popping out from behind a wall, and seeing how far they moved before I got the picture), I got 233 milliseconds - 0 from the finder, 213 from my eye/hand coordination, and 20 from shutter lag (plus, I suppose, 0.00000010144045 ms for the speed of light over 100 feet/30m ))

2) Anticipation (thank you, Carly!) is indeed important. But some of the strongest pictures are those that cannot be anticipated - most of their strength lies in the obvious "surprise" implied.

[lct]

1 hour ago, adan said:

[...] Human "lag" and EVF "lag" and double-acting shutter "lag" are additive. We can't do much about our physiology (yet ) - we can eliminate viewfinder lag and minimize shutter lag, so that our own response time is the only factor. [...]

My M240 is too sluggish to be used in LV mode on moving subjects but my later mirrorless cameras (Sony A7s mod, Leica digital CL, Fuji X-E2) have no annoying EVF lag nor shutter lag in good light and silent shutter mode at least. Only significant problem with M lenses is image magnification having to be triggered manually on those bodies contrary to M cameras. An electronic stigmometer, if any, would have to be automatic in this respect IMHO. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by lct

[Jeff S]

Let’s remember a decisive moment from Christmas Eve 50 years ago...

 

Jeff

[pico]

1 hour ago, adan said:

 I got 233 milliseconds - 0 from the finder, 213 from my eye/hand coordination, and 20 from shutter lag

That's a long time. Of course I could do no better. The idea of a camera that has a smart artificial window which records frames before the shutter click deserves some thought. Most of us probably know someone who was very good with SLRs, perhaps sports photographers who seemed to live milliseconds in the future. I stood beside one for a couple years and recall when it seemed by the shutter sound that we got the same frame, he just smiled, "I got it."  He was always right.

[jaapv]

Panasonic has pre-release bursts which actually start before you release the shutter.

[evikne]

Some rhythmic sense might be useful even for a photographer. With some careful looking, there is a kind of “rhythm” in many movements. For example one can see a smile is about to develop, and one can know exactly when it is at the most beautiful. 

When feeling the “rhythm“, one picture often is enough, because one knows the “decisive moment” just before it happens.

[jonoslack]

4 hours ago, adan said:

I would just add:

1) Human "lag" and EVF "lag" and double-acting shutter "lag" are additive. We can't do much about our physiology (yet ) - we can eliminate viewfinder lag and minimize shutter lag, so that our own response time is the only factor.

 

Hmmm not sure I agree here that it's additive Andy

With an EVF you are just living in the past - what you see is in the past . . and when you press the shutter release, that's in the past as well. 

[jaapv]

Jono, go stuff your Turkey...  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[adan]

Jono: additive - in that each step in the lag adds to the previous total, creating more and more lag.

For EVF lag = X, human reaction time = Y, and shutter mechanism lag = Z

The event occurs at time T - the EVF shows it to you at time T+X - your nervous system reacts and presses the shutter button at time (T+X) + Y - the shutter actual opens for exposure at time ((T+X)+Y)+Z.

Jeff gives us a nice example photo - only times before an event are counted as negative numbers ("T minus 5 minutes and counting"). The event itself is time zero ("5-4-3-2-1-Liftoff!"). Times after the event are always positive ("We are at T plus 1:20 and Apollo 8 is now 10 miles down range at an altitude of 35,000 feet, passing 2000 miles per hour.")

Anyway - here's hoping SantaLeica will eventually provide an acceptable EVF formula for M lenses, regardless of name, in the stocking of everyone who want one...

[fabior]

rhythm, lag, decisive moment ... all things correlated at our capability to be part of the moment and predict whats 's going on to capture the magic instant to shot. As I like and practice karate I found strong correlation between these activity .... to understand better why not look this video