Dismayed by the M10-D

[jdlaing]

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If it’s EVF it’s not an M.

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[adan]

5 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

You mean like this?    

This isn't a photo forum, so I'll keep it simple, since you did ask.

The picture you posted would get a "B-" in the first half of the first semester of any photo class I ever took or taught (good technical control - "nice sky and clouds"). It would earn a C- by the end of the first semester ("This kid isn't improving"). If it were still in your portfolio by sometime in your second year - you'd get a conference with the student adviser or department head to suggest gently that you look into finding a different major.

At any publication I've worked for, it would have hit the circular file, while we hoped you had something better in your outtakes. Except perhaps in the Entertainment Section, where it approximates the lower end of the boring posed static handouts we got in bulk from movie studios.

It is a boring, cluttered picture that "mumbles" about what the point is. What's "the instant?" The sheriff grimacing? Sorry, that is 1% of an otherwise static "stage-set."

It's probably not even fair to EVFs - I suspect people can do better than that. I suspect you can do better than that.

[mmradman]

19 minutes ago, adan said:

This isn't a photo forum, so I'll keep it simple, since you did ask.

The picture you posted would get a "B-" in the first half of the first semester of any photo class I ever took or taught (good technical control - "nice sky and clouds"). It would earn a C- by the end of the first semester ("This kid isn't improving"). If it were still in your portfolio by sometime in your second year - you'd get a conference with the student adviser or department head to suggest gently that you look into finding a different major.

At any publication I've worked for, it would have hit the circular file, while we hoped you had something better in your outtakes. Except perhaps in the Entertainment Section, where it approximates the lower end of the boring posed static handouts we got in bulk from movie studios.

It is a boring, cluttered picture that "mumbles" about what the point is. What's "the instant?" The sheriff grimacing? Sorry, that is 1% of an otherwise static "stage-set."

It's probably not even fair to EVFs - I suspect people can do better than that. I suspect you can do better than that.

Merry Christmas.

Here is a good news (for Leica), some people buy expensive brand cameras and/or lenses as they like the luxury, legend and sometimes convenience, common complaint is difficulty focusing with RF.  For example there is a recent post on M lens thread where Noctilux f0.95 is mated to Sony Alpha and shallow DOF is illustrated with a doll resting on a very expensive Hi-Fi.  Some even take photography seriously regardless of your grading system,  my work is probably F-. 

[mmradman]

24 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

If it’s EVF it’s not an M.

Merry Christmas.

Even birds know that, boring.

[jdlaing]

Then call it what it is. SL or Q. 

[jkcampbell2]

1 hour ago, adan said:

This isn't a photo forum, so I'll keep it simple, since you did ask.

The picture you posted would get a "B-" in the first half of the first semester of any photo class I ever took or taught (good technical control - "nice sky and clouds"). It would earn a C- by the end of the first semester ("This kid isn't improving"). If it were still in your portfolio by sometime in your second year - you'd get a conference with the student adviser or department head to suggest gently that you look into finding a different major.

At any publication I've worked for, it would have hit the circular file, while we hoped you had something better in your outtakes. Except perhaps in the Entertainment Section, where it approximates the lower end of the boring posed static handouts we got in bulk from movie studios.

It is a boring, cluttered picture that "mumbles" about what the point is. What's "the instant?" The sheriff grimacing? Sorry, that is 1% of an otherwise static "stage-set."

It's probably not even fair to EVFs - I suspect people can do better than that. I suspect you can do better than that.

Harsh and spiteful. You seem to be jumping off a cliff just because some users don't agree with you. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I find this kind of personal attack childish. jc

[adan]

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JC - He asked.

Bottom line - I have been taught by Natl. Geographic and other professional photographers - who between them saw fit to grant me two degrees, while at the same time being exactly as tough on my work as I was in this case (ever seen someone pop a picture off the dry-mount into a trash can?)

I have earned my living by my opinions about photographs as a teacher (5 years)  and editor (30 years) - people with lots of other options felt mine were worth it.

I have edited and laid out the work of Pulitzer-Prize winners. It would be disrespectful to their outstanding talent and the professional risks they have taken, to soft-soap a mediocre picture here. Especially if someone claims it proves something or other.

I don't volunteer those opinions for the most part, except for the occasional Thanks or Like for something that stands out as above the norm. But if someone asks, they will get them.

[Chaemono]

I would like Andy to grade a couple of my pictures exactly the same way.

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, adan said:

This isn't a photo forum, so I'll keep it simple, since you did ask.

The picture you posted would get a "B-" in the first half of the first semester of any photo class I ever took or taught (good technical control - "nice sky and clouds"). It would earn a C- by the end of the first semester ("This kid isn't improving"). If it were still in your portfolio by sometime in your second year - you'd get a conference with the student adviser or department head to suggest gently that you look into finding a different major.

At any publication I've worked for, it would have hit the circular file, while we hoped you had something better in your outtakes. Except perhaps in the Entertainment Section, where it approximates the lower end of the boring posed static handouts we got in bulk from movie studios.

It is a boring, cluttered picture that "mumbles" about what the point is. What's "the instant?" The sheriff grimacing? Sorry, that is 1% of an otherwise static "stage-set."

It's probably not even fair to EVFs - I suspect people can do better than that. I suspect you can do better than that.

Actually you asked, I mistakenly responded clearly to your dissatisfaction.  My post was simply to show that a moment can be captured with EVF, in focus.  It was in no way staged, nor is the shot a particular favorite of mine. Simply an example.  That things lined up so symmetrically was a happy, for a moron like me,  accident, but demonstrated that it was possible to make such a capture using manual focus and EVF in the moment and do so with quite accurate framing and in your own words,  good technical control.  That it is pedestrian at best is not something that cant be said about anything I do, but that has little to bearing on the issue you raised and more to do with my own personal limitations.  I'm sure a genius such as yourself, would do far better, if you gave it a chance.

As for the example you posted, I will admit to a lack of understanding. I find the waggly fingers popping out of the cops arm, the flag pole poking the little girls eye out, the light pole right angling straight out of the cops helmet as if he's actually a manikin on a stand,  along with whatever it is thats jutting out from top of the Yankee cap and most especially the decision to chop the flag on the left in favor of a random elbow and luggage on the right... well...  its obviously all beyond someone of my meager ability to comprehend.  In future, I wouldn't waste your time with me. My stuff is bound for the junk pile, after all.  

[Jeff S]

26 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

 

As for the example you posted, I will admit to a lack of understanding. I find the waggly fingers popping out of the cops arm, the flag pole poking the little girls eye out, the light pole right angling straight out of the cops helmet as if he's actually a manikin on a stand,  along with whatever it is thats jutting out from top of the Yankee cap and most especially the decision to chop the flag on the left in favor of a random elbow and luggage on the right... well...  its obviously all beyond someone of my meager ability to comprehend.....

Touché.

Jeff

[adan]

OK - if you are brave enough to come back for a second helping, I respect that. Sincerely. 👌

I don't consider your picture a "moment" in the photographic sense. Cartier-Bresson's "decisive moment." A picture in which many things in the frame - in motion - come together for literally a split-second, in such a way that every part of the self-assembling composition contributes to a story (to one extent or another). Not there one instant, there the next, then gone, never to be seen again. A momentary confluence of events.

And it is the cornerstone of the greatest pictures taken with a Leica, and during the lifetime of the Leica brand.

https://www.google.com/search?q=decisive+moment&client=firefox-b-1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi10ujbxrffAhXI24MKHSdtCYcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1850&bih=1251#imgrc=_

That is what I don't think EVFs can do. They come up too short for that instantaneous seeing/snapping-focus/shooting.

It is also what I don't see in your picture. No, I don't think it was literally staged - but most of the elements are static and likely "in position" for several seconds at a minimum, and the only thing that is maybe instanteous was one central expression on one face. I don't get the sense that exposing a second earlier or later would have missed something.

It could have been staged - for all anything in the picture itself says otherwise.

It is also full of distracting elements that don't "gel" into a cohesive meaning - as I said, it mumbles. It isn't really clear what you were photographing or why - what is there I should care about or respond to. It doesn't dig deep enough into the event.

______________

As to my own example: geez - photos are like magic tricks. Once you explain them, the magic goes away. However....

4 days after 9/11, cop is guarding march on Denver street. Two hands come out of the stream of people at the same instant to make human contact. A handshake connotes support, a pat on the shoulder connotes sympathy, the unbroken line of contact across three people connotes solidarity. The flags are recognizable - and that's all that's required - and connote national spirit (maybe) or at least place the action. Yes, it could have been cleaner. But the instant of the touching of the cop is more important that the girl's face or a random pole - gotta set priorities.

It will sound like "an excuse" and I don't mean it that way - it would have been fine if the little girl's face had been visible or the pole had been elsewhere. But a certain randomness in the less important things contributes to the feeling that this is immediate real life, just as it happened.

If you and Jeff don't buy that, that's cool. It is one of my sell-out prints at the gallery, so it touches people at some level. And that's the goal.

 

[jkcampbell2]

11 minutes ago, adan said:

OK - if you are brave enough to come back for a second helping, I respect that. Sincerely. 👌

I don't consider your picture a "moment" in the photographic sense. Cartier-Bresson's "decisive moment." A picture in which many things in the frame - in motion - come together for literally a split-second, in such a way that every part of the self-assembling composition contributes to a story (to one extent or another). Not there one instant, there the next, then gone, never to be seen again. A momentary confluence of events.

And it is the cornerstone of the greatest pictures taken with a Leica, and during the lifetime of the Leica brand.

https://www.google.com/search?q=decisive+moment&client=firefox-b-1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi10ujbxrffAhXI24MKHSdtCYcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1850&bih=1251#imgrc=_

That is what I don't think EVFs can do. They come up too short for that instantaneous seeing/snapping-focus/shooting.

It is also what I don't see in your picture. No, I don't think it was literally staged - but most of the elements are static and likely "in position" for several seconds at a minimum, and the only thing that is maybe instanteous was one central expression on one face. I don't get the sense that exposing a second earlier or later would have missed something.

It could have been staged - for all anything in the picture itself says otherwise.

It is also full of distracting elements that don't "gel" into a cohesive meaning - as I said, it mumbles. It isn't really clear what you were photographing or why - what is there I should care about or respond to. It doesn't dig deep enough into the event.

______________

As to my own example: geez - photos are like magic tricks. Once you explain them, the magic goes away. However....

4 days after 9/11, cop is guarding march on Denver street. Two hands come out of the stream of people at the same instant to make human contact. A handshake connotes support, a pat on the shoulder connotes sympathy, the unbroken line of contact across three people connotes solidarity. The flags are recognizable - and that's all that's required - and connote national spirit (maybe) or at least place the action. Yes, it could have been cleaner. But the instant of the touching of the cop is more important that the girl's face or a random pole - gotta set priorities.

It will sound like "an excuse" and I don't mean it that way - it would have been fine if the little girl's face had been visible or the pole had been elsewhere. But a certain randomness in the less important things contributes to the feeling that this is immediate real life, just as it happened.

If you and Jeff don't buy that, that's cool. It is one of my sell-out prints at the gallery, so it touches people at some level. And that's the goal.

 

Now that Adan, is a critique worthy of your pedigree you so aptly listed. Big difference from the first try. jc

[Jeff S]

Andy, your photograph does capture a 'decisive moment', and you should be proud of any sales success.  But, as I'm sure you're aware, Cartier Bresson's successful work married both the decisive moment in terms of content and emotion as well as rigorous geometry and composition, devoid of clutter and distraction, and precise framing edge to edge. It also didn't require any explanation of time or place, unless of course it was part of a larger picture story.  Many of his so called decisive moments were shown (through his contact sheets) to be one of many shots of a given scene, after brutal editing, including the elimination of any "close but no cigar' attempts ruined by stray elements, background clutter, etc.

Some of his own words.... 

https://www.americansuburbx.com/2012/01/interview-henri-cartier-bresson-famous.html

And more from an admiring photographer, with relevant quotes and examples...

http://erickimphotography.com/blog/2014/12/09/17-lessons-henri-cartier-bresson-taught-street-photography/

I don't mean this as a critique of your photo, except in the context of any comparison to Bresson and his philosophy.  At least as I see it.

....Off to bed for me.

Jeff

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Jeff S

[pgk]

3 hours ago, adan said:

I have earned my living by my opinions about photographs as a teacher (5 years)  and editor (30 years) - people with lots of other options felt mine were worth it.

Well, if there is one thing that I have learned, as someone with a degree in photography and who has made his living for the last 28 years from free-lancing, it is that formal photographic education is nothing more than a foundation and that people's (especially clients) are rarely educated in imagery, but do know what they want/like. Applying photographic 'rules' or critiques to most photographs is completely pointless - those which get used/published do so because they fulfil briefs or more likely because the end user actually likes them. Very sadly, all the photographically newly qualified people that I have met over the last few years have failed to survive as photographers. It seems to me that there is a vast and seemingly increasingly unbridgeable gulf between what is being taught as 'photography' and actually taking photographs to make a living. That said, even very well known and 'successful' photographers are now often involved in running workshops and the like.

To me a good photograph is one which the viewer stops to look at, often likes or is arrested by. All other considerations are secondary because if nobody is interested in more than a glance then the photograph is purely ephemeral and is worthy of little consideration because it has failed at a primary stage. Images need to make you want to look at them again before they can be thought of as anything more than the building blocks of a visual conversation.

The technology behind the digital revolution is still maturing but one thing is certain and that is that we have never had such good equipment. It is still the marketplace and profitability which drives new products. For those who want an M shaped, M mount EVF camera it will be about numbers and viability from Leica's point of view - then there is the secondary consideration as to whether such a model will fit in with their image and ethos - only they can tell us this. Without a sufficient number of buyers though its never likely to appear so everyone interested in such a camera should make Leica aware of this.

[adan]

I don't disagree...

Anyway, back to the original thread drift: I expect the technology is out there to be pulled together to make a zero-lag EVF, and even one with my beloved "split image" (Fuji's made a rather feeble stab at it). Phase-detect pixels to drive a "simulated split-image" with sharper graphics, electronic global shutter, I think I even saw mention of some cam or phone that always "saved" the last few seconds of live-view before a shutter is fired, so that one can "back up" to a moment one missed.

Not sure if finder black-out can ever be totally removed - the old saying with clockwork SLR finders was "if you saw it, you missed it." (Canon Pellix excepted)

And the core question is if and when Leica will get their hands on the required licenses.

If Leica had wanted to, they could have done an EVF M based on the M240 long ago (an even larger body volume to work with).

[LocalHero1953]

Andy, I'm not sure if you've used the SL or CL from the way you write. There is no literal blackout. There might actually be a momentary frozen image in the SL, but frankly it is so minimal that I no longer notice it. The CL EVF freeze is also so unnoticeable in practice that I have forgotten it's there. I can see no EVF lag in the SL, and none that make a significant difference in the CL.

No one doubts there are advantages to an OVF/RF, but for me most weights in the scales are now on the side of the EVF, not lease because a good EVF is close enough to the responsiveness of the OVF - and the EVF has some other clear advantages. For other people, I quite accept that the OVF/RF retains advantages for how they shoot.

In terms of the shot you posted, I am certain that EVF effects would have had zilch impact on your the ability to get the shot, which depends far more on your vision, timing and experience than any camera behaviour. I'm writing this as someone who has never stopped telling others that the reason I used Leica M's was because of their responsiveness and ability to shoot the image I see, when I see it. I have moved on (sold my M240 two weeks ago) because there are new cameras around in the last few years (since the SL launched) that compete with the M for responsiveness, and have genuine other advantages that I can make use of. It's my ability that holds me back, not my camera kit.

Edited December 24, 2018 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

I don't think licensing will be a problem. Things like EVFs are mostly built by supply companies, not camera makers. As it is, I think we have only seen the beginning of the development. The SL EVF is already better than many SLR's, the CL and Panasonic ones (which probably come from the same robots) close. They are nothing like the primitive ones of five years ago, let alone the Steampunk Digilux2.

As for "if you have seen it you have missed it", I couldn't agree more. However, there is a remedy: anticipation. We all use it; even in an optical viewfinder there is a considerable lag human reaction time. Nobody pushes the shutter the moment he sees the shot. On average we are 215 milliseconds late, the best of us manage 100 milliseconds.  As soon as an EVF comes within that value, there will be no advantage left for the OVF.  And it will, all it needs is its own powerful processing.   https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

[jonoslack]

19 minutes ago, adan said:

I don't disagree...

Anyway, back to the original thread drift: I expect the technology is out there to be pulled together to make a zero-lag EVF, and even one with my beloved "split image" (Fuji's made a rather feeble stab at it). Phase-detect pixels to drive a "simulated split-image" with sharper graphics, electronic global shutter, I think I even saw mention of some cam or phone that always "saved" the last few seconds of live-view before a shutter is fired, so that one can "back up" to a moment one missed.

Not sure if finder black-out can ever be totally removed - the old saying with clockwork SLR finders was "if you saw it, you missed it." (Canon Pellix excepted)

And the core question is if and when Leica will get their hands on the required licenses.

If Leica had wanted to, they could have done an EVF M based on the M240 long ago (an even larger body volume to work with).

Whilst I also prefer to shoot with a rangefinder (no lag / no blackout) one should be aware that nobody's reactions are anything like as short as the lag of the current EVFs - which means that experienced photographers really catch the 'decisive moment' by anticipation rather than reaction - you must also anticipate with a rangefinder (it takes time to press the button, even with instant reactions). 

I don't really think that a zero-lag EVF is any more of a possibility than a zero-lag brain, but current models are pretty good, and there's no doubt that Leica has access to the required licenses. 

Of course Leica could have done an EVF based M240 (but the refresh rate possible was pretty poor, and that was a function of the read out and processing power rather than the sensor - so it would have been a sad old thing). 

Setting aside my arguments about the L mount . . . . . 

They surely aren't going to make an EVF based M10 (still problems with the readout speed I guess), so the next opportunity would be the M11, and I guess they must be considering it.

I think there are two core questions
1. whether Leica think there is a real market for it

2. whether Leica think it'll simply bastardise sales of the M11 (in which case you have 2 lots of R&D for the same number of sales)

These are questions which we can all ask ourselves . . .but I don't think anyone can answer without a lot of market research 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

It seems we were synchronized, Jono

[jonoslack]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

 

As for "if you have seen it you have missed it", I couldn't agree more. However, there is a remedy: anticipation. We all use it; even in an optical viewfinder there is a considerable lag human reaction time. Nobody pushes the shutter the moment he sees the shot. On average we are 215 milliseconds late, the best of us manage 100 milliseconds.  As soon as an EVF comes within that value, there will be no advantage left for the OVF.  And it will, all it needs is its own powerful processing.   https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

Snap . . but you got there first!

But I don't think there is an advantage now, because if anticipation must come into the equation (and it must) then one can anticipate properly in either situation.