pgk Posted December 16, 2018 Share #41 Posted December 16, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) 55 minutes ago, lct said: Achilles' heel or unique strength? Such a transfer could not work with M lenses and the "second M" could retain both the current coding and roller cam allowing for auto image magnification. 10 minutes ago, jaapv said: Make money in the context of: will the number sold balance the R&D plus potential loss of sales of real M cameras. jaapv hits the nail on the head. Would such a camera repay investment? Despite the calls on the forum for an 'M' camera with evf and auto image magnification, I wonder just how many potential buyers there are for it? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 16, 2018 Posted December 16, 2018 Hi pgk, Take a look here Dismayed by the M10-D. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 16, 2018 Share #42 Posted December 16, 2018 (edited) +1 to Godfrey's note. And BTW, the CL's "nice but slow" primes are back on the shelf in the US, as are some of the zooms. Edited December 16, 2018 by scott kirkpatrick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 16, 2018 Share #43 Posted December 16, 2018 The M-EVF has been a contentious issue here since the M9 (and probably longer, though I’m not sure EVF technology has been good enough to be feasible before then). I’m no technician, but I would have thought at this stage, shoehorning an EVF as good as the CL or better wouldn’t be hard at all considering the size of the existing optical rangefinder. It would be cheaper too. If nothing else changed (no AF, no video etc), just an M10-E, I’m not sure that Leica would lose anything in sales - expanding the options doesn’t really have that effect. The problem seems to be that things get out of hand. Things are offered because they can be, some one asks “why use the M mount when the L mount is better” and the pressure goes on the CL or the SL. But, if they simply offered an M10 with an EVF, nothing else changed (an M10-E), I think it might well keep a number of M owners here happy, and it would be another option offered in the M system - more lenses sold, more M users ... I wouldn’t buy one as I already have an SL and I’m very happy with it. I like my M cameras as they are, but I don’t see why people who want an EVF M should miss out - there are clearly a number of them here alone. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 17, 2018 Share #44 Posted December 17, 2018 I won't bore you with the technical issues unless you want (all solvable - but at a price), but I'd estimate an EVF-M would require about 10X the work (read - "money") in terms of redesign and reprogramming as did the really simple (by comparison) development of the Monochrom. Which Leica didn't move on until a U.S. Natl. Laboratory contractor showed up on the doorstep offering a check for all the development costs + the first 12 finished cameras. Which Leica didn't accept - they wanted to retain the IP rights - but was "earnest money" proving there was a market willing to put down cash on the barrelhead. "A number of M owners" is not a serious estimate of a worthwhile market. However, 1,000 folks offering $1000 each in an informal kickstart campaign might get Leica's attention. It would cover the development costs, plus offer a little extra incentive to pull engineers etc. off other projects. I'm not sure Leica can be bought off that way, however. Part of the price of owning an M is: accepting loving manual-rangefinder focus. It's like those exclusive nightclubs where you can't get in unless your are "somebody," no matter how much cash you wave around. The M is and always will be a camera built for people who like the retro operation - if you can't handle that, you can't afford one. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted December 17, 2018 Share #45 Posted December 17, 2018 (edited) +1 to Andy’s note. So, our only hope is that Lenny Kravitz buds in. I’m sure he can get into any nightclub he wants. Edited December 17, 2018 by Chaemono Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 17, 2018 Share #46 Posted December 17, 2018 No, our only hope is to accept that the SL is a better solution than any M10-E would be. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 17, 2018 Share #47 Posted December 17, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said: No, our only hope is to accept that the SL is a better solution than any M10-E would be. Don't count me in please, i'm not interested in bulky cameras. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2018 Share #48 Posted December 17, 2018 I'm sure Leica will attempt to shrink an SL2 somewhat, time will tell. But a high quality EVF will always take up some space. See the CL, it can only be small because of the smaller sensor, the EVF had to have its bump nevertheless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted December 17, 2018 Share #49 Posted December 17, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, jaapv said: I'm sure Leica will attempt to shrink an SL2 somewhat, time will tell. But a high quality EVF will always take up some space. See the CL, it can only be small because of the smaller sensor, the EVF had to have its bump nevertheless. CL is fitted with a smaller APS-C sensor but the lens mount is unmistakably L mount which is full frame lens mount. It wouldn't be beyond the ability of Leica to shoehorn full frame sensor into CL body or equivalent, maybe disable video if heat is issue. Of course better EVF than CL's would be desirable. Edited December 17, 2018 by mmradman underline text 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2018 Share #50 Posted December 17, 2018 I'm not so confident; My MFT Panasonic GX8 is considerably larger than the CL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Richardson Posted December 17, 2018 Share #51 Posted December 17, 2018 I think it must only be photographers who notice such subtle differences in size! I agree that they can be relevant for carrying gear around, but honestly, if you are using the same lenses is it SO different? I see of course if you are using the giant SL lenses... Then again, I am shooting 8x10 and all of a sudden my 4x5 seems light and portable. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/292304-dismayed-by-the-m10-d/?do=findComment&comment=3648783'>More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 17, 2018 Share #52 Posted December 17, 2018 6 hours ago, adan said: I'm not sure Leica can be bought off that way, however. Part of the price of owning an M is: accepting loving manual-rangefinder focus. It's like those exclusive nightclubs where you can't get in unless your are "somebody," no matter how much cash you wave around. The M is and always will be a camera built for people who like the retro operation - if you can't handle that, you can't afford one. And I'm not sure that the idea of an EVF 'M' camera is one which will appeal to the ethos of Leica - diluting the 'retro', 'heritage' model line is fraught with potential risk for many reasons. IF an EVF 'M' could make a good deal of money then it would probably be in Leica's interest. To make a small amount might not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepyhead Posted December 17, 2018 Share #53 Posted December 17, 2018 1 hour ago, lct said: Don't count me in please, i'm not interested in bulky cameras. I was using the SL with 35mm Summicron-M this last weekend, and thought “wow it’s really quite a small package”, in fact with the beafy SL grip, quite perfect in size - for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 17, 2018 Share #54 Posted December 17, 2018 Small package the SL? If it were an MF camera i could understand but this FF thing is as monstrous as Leicaflexes Leica replaced by the compact R4 to R7 bodies 30+ years ago thanks to Minolta. If Leica cannot do it alone, why not working with Sony or Nikon? Unless they expect the same brilliant results as Godzilla R8 or R9 bodies that is... For those who don't know how compact FF bodies look like see below. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/292304-dismayed-by-the-m10-d/?do=findComment&comment=3648800'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2018 Share #55 Posted December 17, 2018 Yes - notice that large mountain on top of the Sony? And the huge handgrip which provides a considerable amount of space for battery and electronics (like the present SL, of course)? I bet that the volume of the Sony is quite a bit more than the M. You need to think in three dimensions, not two. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 17, 2018 Share #56 Posted December 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, jaapv said: Yes - notice that large mountain on top of the Sony? And the huge handgrip which provides a considerable amount of space for battery and electronics? I bet that the volume of the Sony is quite a bit more than the M. You need to think in three dimensions, not two. No need to think, those two bodies are mine. Both feel smaller than my good old R4s which looks like a dwarf compared to film and digital SLs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepyhead Posted December 17, 2018 Share #57 Posted December 17, 2018 Well, my intention in posting was not to incite debate, merely to communicate my impression of the SL size in use with M lenses over the last year. It's obvious from this discussion, as well as other on forums, that different people have different definitions of "huge" and "monstrous". I like the SL as it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 17, 2018 Share #58 Posted December 17, 2018 Out of curiosity, what price would people be prepared to pay for an EVF 'M' body? Would it need lens adapters (R)? Is an expensive, very limited M mount EVF body really an object of desire? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted December 17, 2018 Share #59 Posted December 17, 2018 (edited) dis·may /disˈmā/ verb past tense: dismayed; past participle: dismayed cause (someone) to feel consternation and distress. "they were dismayed by the U-turn in policy" synonyms: appall, horrify, shock, shake (up); I don’t think I could get dismayed by a camera offering. If I didn’t like it I just wouldn’t buy it. Edited December 17, 2018 by jdlaing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkcampbell2 Posted December 17, 2018 Share #60 Posted December 17, 2018 2 hours ago, pgk said: And I'm not sure that the idea of an EVF 'M' camera is one which will appeal to the ethos of Leica - diluting the 'retro', 'heritage' model line is fraught with potential risk for many reasons. IF an EVF 'M' could make a good deal of money then it would probably be in Leica's interest. To make a small amount might not. Isn't an EVF 'M' just a Leica Q with an M mount and no auto focus? Same size, no huge "hump" on top, classic 'M' styling. I'm not an engineer but it seems like Leica has already been experimenting with the concept. Cheers, jc 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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