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SrMi

Leica CL vs TL2 dynamic range

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Bill Claff published the photographic dynamic range for T, TL, and TL2 cameras.

Surprisingly to me, TL2 has much better dynamic range than CL:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica%20CL,Leica%20TL2,Nikon%20D850

 

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I’m surprised and not. I recently took a picture with the TL2 and photo turned out to be much more expressive compared to the cl2 at that iso (1600).

Technically and aesthetically I always found it superior but functionality wise a very distant second place. 

 

Alas. My loss. I’m (somewhat) inclined to keep the tl lenses and sell  the cl and just wait for a tl3.

 

saptarshi

 

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I've just sent this mail to Bill: Let's see what his take on this puzzle is.

Quote

Hello Bill!

Just a quick question: I’ve seen the DR graphs of the Leica CL and TL2. These two cameras use the same hardware/sensor and, according to Leica, are sister cameras. How can the curves be so different?

Best
Jaap

Looking at the curves, it is surprising that there are some non-linearities in the TL2 curve. This suggests that Leica is using a technique called dual conversion gain, which they also use on the Q and SL.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Aptina/DR-Pix_WhitePaper.pdf

https://www.brillnics.com/technology/brillnics_h3_dr_view_technology

And this is Sony's patent. Note that the consensus is that Leica is most likely using Sony APS-C sensors.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0148832.html

 

 

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3 hours ago, saptarshi said:

I’m surprised and not. I recently took a picture with the TL2 and photo turned out to be much more expressive compared to the cl2 at that iso (1600).

Technically and aesthetically I always found it superior but functionality wise a very distant second place. 

 

Alas. My loss. I’m (somewhat) inclined to keep the tl lenses and sell  the cl and just wait for a tl3.

 

saptarshi

 

Were these two images the same, taken by identical light and of the same subject with the same lens? If not, there is absolutely no conclusion to be drawn. Looking at these curves, it is hard to imagine that one would see a real-world difference, except in extreme light.

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7 hours ago, SrMi said:

Bill Claff published the photographic dynamic range for T, TL, and TL2 cameras.

Surprisingly to me, TL2 has much better dynamic range than CL:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica%20CL,Leica%20TL2,Nikon%20D850

 

I have a real problem with these curves. They do not make any sense.

For me, there must be a measuring error. Firstly, the TL2 came out earlier and should have a higher dynamical range than a top notch 35mm sensor from Sony?  Secondly, it contradicts the statement of Maike Harberts, the product manager of Leica's APS-C line. She point out that the CL and the TL2 have the same "DNA" but with a distinct different user interface. I can only conclude that Leica uses the same sensor, AF control unit and the same image processor but with a different GUI. Economically and marketing wise it does not make sense to use to different sensors with two so distinct characteristics.

not all curve by one individual are always correct. You have to factor in common sense and statements from Leica in interviews.

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DXO has the same findings, albeit with their less informative curves

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First thing i noticed was the mediocre DR of the CL compared to my Sony A7s mod but it is hard to believe that another APS-C camera like the TL2 does better than MF or FF cameras like Leica S7, M10 or SL. 

 

 

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:lol: Welcome to 2018. Technology progresses. And judging a product by just one parameter is senseless anyway.

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I dunno what Bill Claff's curves are all about. 

I don't have a TL2 to compare against, but I have compared the CL's output against both my SL and my M-D typ 262 results and see little difference in dynamic range up to ISO 3200 at least. If the TL2 actually produces (and I don't mean 'measures') more dynamic range in the same scene types, wonderful!

But I'm not about to buy another body or sell the CL on that basis: It's quite good enough for what I use it for, and I prefer its control ergonomics over the T/TL series bodies. 

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I was surprised to learn from Bill that CL and TL2 have different sensors (different resolution, different black points). Raw files from both, when imported into LR show same, slightly lower resolution, but one can use a program like Rawdigger to see the real raw data.

I would never advocate buying a camera based on DXO scores or dynamic range graphs, but I was always tempted by TL2 design and am glad to see the measured dynamic range is very nice.

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5 hours ago, jaapv said:

DXO has the same findings, albeit with their less informative curves

Can you point me to DXO measurements for CL and TL2 cameras? Thanks!

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6 hours ago, frithjof.b said:

I have a real problem with these curves. They do not make any sense.

For me, there must be a measuring error. Firstly, the TL2 came out earlier and should have a higher dynamical range than a top notch 35mm sensor from Sony?  Secondly, it contradicts the statement of Maike Harberts, the product manager of Leica's APS-C line. She point out that the CL and the TL2 have the same "DNA" but with a distinct different user interface. I can only conclude that Leica uses the same sensor, AF control unit and the same image processor but with a different GUI. Economically and marketing wise it does not make sense to use to different sensors with two so distinct characteristics.

not all curve by one individual are always correct. You have to factor in common sense and statements from Leica in interviews.

Based on many statements on the Web, I also concluded that CL and TL2 have the same sensor. After several emails with Bill, I realized that is not the case. If you analyze the raw files with a program like Rawdigger you will notice that they have different specs.

Bill's measurements have always been very reliable.

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3 hours ago, SrMi said:

Can you point me to DXO measurements for CL and TL2 cameras? Thanks!

I got a desktop notice today by Leica Rumors. However, I'm sure you can find them on the DXO site.

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10 hours ago, jaapv said:

I've just sent this mail to Bill: Let's see what his take on this puzzle is.

 

 

Bill's answer:

 

Quote

Jaap,

Leica measurements can be difficult but these are clearly not the same
sensor.
The actual raw resolution is different and they use different black level
strategies.

Regards,
Bil

 

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I got a desktop notice today by Leica Rumors. However, I'm sure you can find them on the DXO site.

I have searched DXO site before asking and could not find anything, hence my question.

AFAICT, Leica Rumors have only written about Bill Claff's measurements, which I have linked in my original post.

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You might be right, I only saw a push message in a flash on my desktop. However,  Bill Claff's is one of the most reliable and expert sites out there. Which still makes the who story rather weird.

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I don’t think it is at all surprising that the sensors are different, if only in minor ways.  Still, both the same APS-C format and both 24 MP, and apparently Sony sensors.  They might have the same DNA, but they are for different camera bodies.  I’d be surprised if there weren’t some differences.  I can’t really appreciate the differences the graphs show, except in the most rudimentary sense - the TL2 has greater dynamic range.  The CL owners seem very happy, so where’s the issue?

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45 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I don’t think it is at all surprising that the sensors are different, if only in minor ways.  Still, both the same APS-C format and both 24 MP, and apparently Sony sensors.  They might have the same DNA, but they are for different camera bodies.  I’d be surprised if there weren’t some differences.  I can’t really appreciate the differences the graphs show, except in the most rudimentary sense - the TL2 has greater dynamic range.  The CL owners seem very happy, so where’s the issue?

I started this thread to inform about the surprising difference between CL and TL2 sensors. I always assumed they were the same. As a happy CL owner (no TL2 for me) I never intended to claim inferiority of CL.

Honi soit qui mal y pense ;-).

Nitpicking: the two cameras do not have 24Mp sensors; CL has 6120x4016 and TL2 has 6016x4014; we do not know who manufactures them.

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Whatever happened to irony in the trip across the Atlantic?

I don't think ANY CL owner has cause to be unhappy - the camera takes just as good pictures now as it did before the test!  Not sure where "evil" comes into it, but I'm sure you will get over your disappointment that your camera (apparently) isn't as good as a camera you don't want! 🙄

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