Wetzlar Camera Auctions

[willeica]

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I received an email this afternoon from Lars Netopil about the newly formed Wetzlar Camera Auctions

https://www.wetzlarcameraauctions.com/en-gb/home

Lars is involved, as is Jo Geier, formerly of Westlicht/Leica shop in Vienna and now with his own business called 'Mint & Rare'. The first auction is planned for October 2019.

At the Westlicht Auction last week, the CEO of Leica AG, which now owns the business, announced that the Westlicht Auction was moving to Wetzlar in 2019. I believe that I read somewhere that Rahn Auction in Frankfurt may also move to Wetzlar . Time will tell whether these matters are related, I suppose.

William

[schattenundlicht]

I suppose they somehow try to breathe some life into the recently stagnant Leica historica auction market by psychologically binding it more closely to the famous site of origin. Moreover they have to populate LeitzPark & the newly built Ernst Leitz Hotel, preferably attracting some well-heeled overseas buyers. The trend of „eventifying“ purchases can be seen everywhere. This is not necessarily a bad thing, if it increases ownership experience e.g. in combination with a visit to the proposed museum. On immersion into the technical history of the company, wallets may be more liberally emptied

Mathias

Edited December 2, 2018 by schattenundlicht

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[willeica]

Thanks Mathias. The only Westlicht Auction which I have attended in person was the 100th Anniversary auction (for Leica items only) held in Wetzlar in what is now the staff canteen for the Leica AG factory. On my recent visit to Wetzlar I noted the vast improvement in facilities as compared to 2014. There is now a hotel and a building which will contain the museum and which also contains large meeting rooms, very suitable for holding auctions, plus storage facilities. It is some years now since Leica AG acquired controlling stakes in Westlicht and Rahn Auctions. While to some, Wetzlar might not appear to be as 'comfortable' a destination as Vienna or Frankfurt, it is only about an hour away from Frankfurt Airport. These days a lot of bidding takes place online anyway or through agents for the more valuable items.

Lars Netopil has vast experience and knowledge in respect of the history of Leica and his CV needs no explanation by me. In addition he has a Leica Store in Wetzlar has run the Solms Camera fair for many years. I am still not clear at this stage, however, whether this new entity will run the re-located Westlicht and Rahn Auctions.

I would not regard the market for historical Leicas as being stagnant. There is still a lot of competition for rare and unusual items and more ordinary items, while they may have gone back a bit in value, still largely hold most of their original value. The Leica section is still the largest part of most auctions and, in the case of Rahn, they actually have a separate auction on a different day for the Leica items. Compared to Leica, the value of some makes of historical cameras has gone back quite a bit, although some makes/categories are still quite healthy such as Hasselblad, Rollei and Leica Copies. Some collectors who collect makes other than Leica have expressed reservations to me about Leica taking ownership control of two of the major camera auctions in Europe (and probably the world in the case of Westlicht). They are concerned about other makes being put in the shade by the strong association with Leica. The challenge will, therefore, be to maintain the auctions and their standing on all fronts, while holding them at the HQ of one particular make.

William

[luigi bertolotti]

Not a bad move, and I think both for Leica AG and the Marketplace : for Leica, consolidates its visibility as a Company with an almost unequalled Heritage, also by further revamping the "Wetzlar" brand (*); for Marketplace, a regular pace af auctions next to "the source of expertise/certification" is reassuring. I hope they will not abandon the auctioning of other brands.

(*) I wonder if Wetzlar community finds some way to capitalize on the "branding" of his name by a commercial entity… I make this consideration because, by chance, during a recent trip around Trieste, we encountered the small village of Prosek (Slovenian name, Prosecco in Italian) ; the Prosecco wine originated there, but it has been made as a succesful brand name by winemakers of the (rather far)  Treviso area : people of Prosek complain that their name is now famous and valued… and nothing goes into the pockets of their community…  

 

[pedaes]

I recieved the same e-mail as William and it raises the question of which data base was used for e-mail addresses. I was registered with Westlicht and assumed it is their data base, which if correct provides a clue. This is obviously supported by Leica, more especially Dr. AK I guess, and as they/he owned Westlicht it was theirs/his decision to withdraw and transfer the management of the events. As Mathias said, good business for the Leica Park campus, which continues to grow as the centre of the Leica world.

To pick up Luigi's point, I think the Wetzlar economy benefits greatly from the presence of Leica, as confirmed by local taxi drivers, restaurants etc.etc..

Edited December 2, 2018 by pedaes

[willeica]

I agree with the points made by Luigi and Keith above. The mailing list may have come from Westlicht where I am a regular customer, but I am also in touch with Lars from time to time and he would have my email address as well. It does not bother me either way as I like to be kept up to date on matters that interest me.

This is probably very good for Leica and Leica users and collectors. It should be noted, though, that Leicas and Leica related items (eg copies and LTM mount lenses) now account for about 45 % of the items at Westlicht Auctions. This figure was as high as 50% some years ago. I believe it is important that the other makes represented in the Westlicht and Rahn Auctions are also supported. Otherwise fragmentation could occur as owners of those items seek a market elsewhere. All of this needs carefully balanced management of the auction processes. There is scope for properly run auctions of good quality collector items. eBay does not really fill that market requirement, for me anyway.

William

[luigi bertolotti]

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50 minutes ago, willeica said:

... I believe it is important that the other makes represented in the Westlicht and Rahn Auctions are also supported. Otherwise fragmentation could occur as owners of those items seek a market elsewhere. All of this needs carefully balanced management of the auction processes. There is scope for properly run auctions of good quality collector items. eBay does not really fill that market requirement, for me anyway.

William

That's exactly my point, too : it's important that this new entity doesn't become simply a high standing "Auction-boutique" for top Leica items targeted at rich collectors… btw, taking the right attention to other brands is, in my opinion, a smart way to broaden their global visibility.

 

[zeitz]

The auction business always has a slightly sleazy feel to it.  One never feels that there is a concern for the buyer.  Kind of like the buyer is an unpleasant necessity.  Or stated another way, all decisions are in the interest of the auction house to maximize operating margin and not to provide a service.  With three major auctions falling within a 2 week period, it would be nice if Wetzlar/Westlicht/Rahn combined into a single auction at a different time than Tamakin.  When is the next auction?  I'm itching to bid again.

[willeica]

30 minutes ago, zeitz said:

The auction business always has a slightly sleazy feel to it.  One never feels that there is a concern for the buyer.  Kind of like the buyer is an unpleasant necessity.  Or stated another way, all decisions are in the interest of the auction house to maximize operating margin and not to provide a service.  With three major auctions falling within a 2 week period, it would be nice if Wetzlar/Westlicht/Rahn combined into a single auction at a different time than Tamakin.  When is the next auction?  I'm itching to bid again.

LP Foto in Stockholm next weekend.  https://www.lpfoto.se/auk/w.ObjectList?inC=LP&inA=20180327_1159   If you research and choose well you can find some nice items. The estimated prices there are low compared to Westlicht etc, but the prices can go up fast when a good condition item appears. I have got some very nice items over the years from this auction. Their grading is accurate. Some items have been hard used and usually the ratings reflect that.

Buying from auctions needs a bit of practice and research. You do not get the nice cosy relationship that you can sometimes find when buying across a store counter with guarantees etc.

William

[dkCambridgeshire]

2 hours ago, zeitz said:

The auction business always has a slightly sleazy feel to it.  One never feels that there is a concern for the buyer.  Kind of like the buyer is an unpleasant necessity.  Or stated another way, all decisions are in the interest of the auction house to maximize operating margin and not to provide a service.  With three major auctions falling within a 2 week period, it would be nice if Wetzlar/Westlicht/Rahn combined into a single auction at a different time than Tamakin.  When is the next auction?  I'm itching to bid again.

WestLicht Auction has been renamed 'Leitz Photographica Auction' and their next sale is in June 2019 … which will also include photographs. 

Wetzlar will become the world's 'photographica' auction capital and can likely accommodate several auction houses … each of whom will be competing for 'record prices' … to attract future sellers. 

'Live Auctioneers' should do well out of all the sales. 

dunk  

[willeica]

57 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

WestLicht Auction has been renamed 'Leitz Photographica Auction' and their next sale is in June 2019 … which will also include photographs. 

Wetzlar will become the world's 'photographica' auction capital and can likely accommodate several auction houses … each of whom will be competing for 'record prices' … to attract future sellers. 

'Live Auctioneers' should do well out of all the sales. 

dunk  

Thanks Dunk. You have confirmed that Wetzlar Camera Auctions will not be the new Westlicht. I missed the beginning of the Westlicht Auction last week and most of the speech by Mr Harsch of Leica AG, but the details are here on the Leica website:

http://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/Global/2018/33rd-WestLicht-Camera-Auction-Results . 

No word yet about Rahn who had the Leica section of their auction in Frankfurt today.

Interesting times ahead, indeed. My friends who collect makes other than Leica remain concerned, though.

William

 

[dkCambridgeshire]

WestLicht used to organise November auctions every year … with the exception of November 2017 which was postponed until March 2018 … to be followed by last month's November sale. However, now remains to be seen if sales in June 2019 (Leitz Photographica Auction) and October 2019 (Wetzlar Camera Auctions), preclude a November sale by Leitz Photographica Auction.     

'Leitz Photographica Auction' does not have the same 'ring' (no pun intended) to it as "WestLicht'.

'WestLicht' is was to camera and photo auctions as 'Hoover' is to vacuum cleaners.  

As my grandmother used to say, "Never did in all my life! … Don't change it!' 

But what is done, is done … and there's 'no going back'.  

Good luck Lars!! Look forward to seeing your first 'Anastigmat' sale  

dunk 

[dkCambridgeshire]

5 hours ago, zeitz said:

The auction business always has a slightly sleazy feel to it.  One never feels that there is a concern for the buyer.  Kind of like the buyer is an unpleasant necessity.  Or stated another way, all decisions are in the interest of the auction house to maximize operating margin and not to provide a service.  With three major auctions falling within a 2 week period, it would be nice if Wetzlar/Westlicht/Rahn combined into a single auction at a different time than Tamakin.  When is the next auction?  I'm itching to bid again.

Be assured that in the past WestLicht has provided both sellers and buyers with  'second to none' service … which is why it became the 'crème de la crème' camera auction house. 

dunk

[zeitz]

I have bought frequently from the Westlicht auction, including two items this year.  I believe Tamarkin provides better service.  But that may just be because of where I'm located on the planet.  I have noticed that the buyers fee keeps rising with Westlicht.  I it was 18% when I first started bidding.  This year I paid 25%.  The Tamarkin fee is lower, but only slightly.  Whatever the fee is, I just figure it into what I'm willing to spend.  I have contacted both Dan Tamarkin and Peter Coeln about errors in their listings.  Dan seemed to care; Peter only responded "thanks for your interest in Westlicht auctions".

[George Furst]

On 12/2/2018 at 2:17 AM, willeica said:

I received an email this afternoon from Lars Netopil about the newly formed Wetzlar Camera Auctions

https://www.wetzlarcameraauctions.com/en-gb/home

Lars is involved, as is Jo Geier, formerly of Westlicht/Leica shop in Vienna and now with his own business called 'Mint & Rare'. The first auction is planned for October 2019.

At the Westlicht Auction last week, the CEO of Leica AG, which now owns the business, announced that the Westlicht Auction was moving to Wetzlar in 2019. I believe that I read somewhere that Rahn Auction in Frankfurt may also move to Wetzlar . Time will tell whether these matters are related, I suppose.

William

I think that this move to Wetzlar for the Wetzlicht auction is a very smart move. I attended the International Leica Society (LHSA) 50th anniversary meeting held from 3 October to 7 October 2018 and was much impressed with the Leitz facilities on top of the hill there. I also felt that it was underutilized and could easily handle four times the 150 members attending the event. It was also obvious that the future of this site was ensured by the high quality of the facilities. Yes there is a fine hotel right there but also the Leitz manufacturing facility and excellent restaurants and a beautifully thought through lay out of the impressive buildings. This move of the famous Wetzlicht Auction will bring many to the location in order the experience more than just the auction. It will be a chance for all to reconnect with the historic roots of the optics and camera industry as well as the beauty of this town. I now understand the real reason so much effort was put into this location. It has all the feeling of a great location with a proud past and even prouder future. I also think that it not being in the middle of a large city means that the event will be more focused on the history of Wetzlar. It is a great move by Leitz to become the camera auction center on the hill and much more!

[wlaidlaw]

Strangely I did not receive an email, although I am a fairly frequent buyer of Leica historica from Peter Coeln/Leicashop and a subscriber and recent buyer from Westlicht Auctions (the Leica built UR replica in the November 2018 auction). Therefore maybe the new auction folk got their mailing list from somewhere else. 

Wilson

[dkCambridgeshire]

7 hours ago, George Furst said:

I think that this move to Wetzlar for the Wetzlicht auction is a very smart move. I attended the International Leica Society (LHSA) 50th anniversary meeting held from 3 October to 7 October 2018 and was much impressed with the Leitz facilities on top of the hill there. I also felt that it was underutilized and could easily handle four times the 150 members attending the event. It was also obvious that the future of this site was ensured by the high quality of the facilities. Yes there is a fine hotel right there but also the Leitz manufacturing facility and excellent restaurants and a beautifully thought through lay out of the impressive buildings. This move of the famous Wetzlicht Auction will bring many to the location in order the experience more than just the auction. It will be a chance for all to reconnect with the historic roots of the optics and camera industry as well as the beauty of this town. I now understand the real reason so much effort was put into this location. It has all the feeling of a great location with a proud past and even prouder future. I also think that it not being in the middle of a large city means that the event will be more focused on the history of Wetzlar. It is a great move by Leitz to become the camera auction center on the hill and much more!

But there is no longer a famous WestLicht Auction … it's to be called 'The Leitz Photographica Auction' … what a mouthful.  Something more meaningful would be preferable e.g. might  'Leitz Park Auction' describe it, better?

dunk 

[willeica]

8 hours ago, zeitz said:

I have bought frequently from the Westlicht auction, including two items this year.  I believe Tamarkin provides better service.  But that may just be because of where I'm located on the planet.  I have noticed that the buyers fee keeps rising with Westlicht.  I it was 18% when I first started bidding.  This year I paid 25%.  The Tamarkin fee is lower, but only slightly.  Whatever the fee is, I just figure it into what I'm willing to spend.  I have contacted both Dan Tamarkin and Peter Coeln about errors in their listings.  Dan seemed to care; Peter only responded "thanks for your interest in Westlicht auctions".

I have bought items in the recent auctions by Tamarkin, Westlicht and Rahn. In the case of Tamarkin, I have bought from Dan, and his father Stan in the fast. They are very nice people, but there is an issue with import tax, which is not going to get any better with the current world trade situation. I also note that in recent times that Tamarkin has had a declining percentage of items offered being sold. I wonder does this mean a decline in interest in collecting in the US? I bought some small items in the recent Tamarkin auction and they arrived at my door last week without a demand for tax from the postman, which is something of an exception. In the past, when items exceeded about €650 in value, I have had to employ a customs agent, at my own cost, in order to clear customs; ie I had to pay someone in order to pay tax myself. I might add that if things go the 'wrong way' in the next few weeks I might end up having to pay import tax on items from auctions in the UK, which won't happen, as I will just stop using them (and UK retailers) in that eventuality.

I agree with George that the facilities in Wetzlar are under-utilised and from the point of view of Leica AG it makes perfect sense to use them more.

47 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

Strangely I did not receive an email, although I am a fairly frequent buyer of Leica historica from Peter Coeln/Leicashop and a subscriber and recent buyer from Westlicht Auctions (the Leica built UR replica in the November 2018 auction). Therefore maybe the new auction folk got their mailing list from somewhere else. 

Wilson

Wilson, it has been established that this new Wetzlar Camera Auctions entity is not Westlicht re-born in Wetzlar. I expect that all of us who are registered with Westlicht will receive communications about the auctions to be held in Wetzlar next June. I wonder how long they will use the Westlicht name? Westlicht (West Light) and Ostlicht (East Light) are two galleries opened by Peter Coeln in Vienna, but I am not clear how the ownership of the galleries now stands.

I agree with Dunk that Leitz Photographica Auction is not such an attractive name and, however it might enthuse Leica collectors, it may, indeed, be off-putting to enthusiasts for other makes, which constituted 55% of the items at the latest Westlicht Auction. 'All to play for' as they say in football.

William

[zeitz]

Import tax (duty) payment in the US is actually well managed.  The carrier (in this case UPS for my recent Westlicht Auction items) contacted me so I could pay my tax immediately.  UPS did charge a service fee of about 10% of the tax to handle the payment.  DHL Express (not DHL EMS) and FedEx do the same thing.  Oddly I have never had to pay duty on EMS packages which are delivered by the US Postal Service.  The downside is that EMS can take weeks whereas the express services take two or three day.

DHL Express enters the US through Cincinnati; UPS seems now to be entering the US through Louisville; the last FedEx packages I received internationally entered through New York and were always a day late.  EMS from Japan and Chicago almost always enter through Chicago.  EMS from Europe typically enters through New York; for some reason the US Postal Service assigns new tracking numbers on packages from some countries.  At that point the EMS package can no longer be tracked.

My Westlicht wins are due to arrive today between 2:30 and 4:30 PM CST.  I expect I will have some comments to add on the descriptions of Lots 196 and 203.  The descriptions in the catalog were vague at best as to the provenance of the claims.

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[willeica]

UPS and other couriers will usually collect the import duty from the US for a small fee, so too will the Irish Post Office for a larger fee if the item is sent via USPS. However, if the value of the item/s is above a certain amount a customs agent is necessary, which is ridiculous. The entire additional charge on import is often about 30% which, when added to the auction premium, adds more than than 50% to the cost. No such duties apply to items from Austria or Germany, but items from there usually come across the Great Britain 'landbridge' in order to get to Ireland and so they may be affected (in terms of time rather than cost) by a 'no deal' Brexit.

As it is coming by land my winning item from  Westlicht, a sharkskin IIIc from 1949, the year of my birth, is due to arrive this Wednesday, which is much faster than usual, I might add. I had to bid hard for this item, as it is fairly mint and was near the 'sharp end of the grid' in the auction. I picked up a sharkskin Ic from Rahn yesterday. I already have a IIIc sharkskin from 1949, but it has the usual pitted chrome 'badge of honour'. My other two sharkskin models are c models that had been converted to f Black Dial models. One of those is an actual conversion of a IIIc to IIIf BD by the factory, but the other is, I think, a Ic converted to a IIf BD in the factory at the manufactring using just the Ic body shell with a new top plate. The tell-tale difference is that the black dial is on a screwed on plate with the first whereas the top plate of the second item is engraved. I have had discussions with Jerzy about these models and I am fairly convinced that surplus c models were used as a basis for early f BD models. It is an interesting little sub-story from the history of Leica which starts from around the time of my birth.

I will be very interested to hear about the Astro Berlin focusing stage, which is stated to be a prototype. It did catch my eye with its nice enamel and what seems to be strong construction. The other item you mentioned is interesting because of the motor drive synchronisation cable. It is very difficult to value unusual accessory items at auction as getting a 'track record' for such items is usually impossible.

William

Edited December 3, 2018 by willeica