Another M10-D users report

[Photon42]

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35 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

SL and TL2 doors and battery access also excellent. The problem, as I recall, was with the Hasselblad X1D doors, wasn’t it?

None of them having "doors", I think ... but well, maybe the wrong thread

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[IkarusJohn]

22 minutes ago, Photon42 said:

None of them having "doors", I think ... but well, maybe the wrong thread

SL on the left, TL2 on the right - excuse the slightly grubby iPhone photo.  Both have doors, and the SL has a connection flap on the left of the camera, in addition to the door on the right.

Though, maybe it depends on how you define "doors"; looks like a door to me.

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[Photon42]

Sorry - I was into battery doors.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Both of the chip doors shown above have pretty good water seals.  The rubber gasket on the SL covering 2 or 3 connectors seals well (at least when it is new).  But the water stress test that Imaging Resource did with Sony about a year ago showed that water got in pretty easily through a bottom battery door like the CL/Panasonic/Q examples.  And once inside the battery case, the water does some real damage.  The S and SL sealed batteries are really nice in this regard.  I realize Leica makes no claims about the Ms for use in rain and snow but the word of mouth evidence is that they do quite well if you are careful.

[pico]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:06 AM, scott kirkpatrick said:

The M10-D forces its user to do some things differently

Really? I'm persuaded to buy one for my housemate, Molly, and she is not a photographer.

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by pico

[Guest Nowhereman]

On 11/23/2018 at 9:06 PM, scott kirkpatrick said:

...I think the M10-D's images are slightly different from the M10's.  A little brighter.  When I use the Leica M10 generic profile that comes with Capture One, I frequently get red highlights that get overexposed.in the output image...

Not sure I understand what you mean. Some of us think that the M10's sensitometry is such that it blows highlights much too easily compared to the M9 and the MM. Do you mean that the M10-D blows them even more easily. If that is the case, it would surprise me if Leica went in the wrong direction on this in the M10-D.

[scott kirkpatrick]

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12 hours ago, pico said:

Really? I'm persuaded to buy one for my housemate, Molly, and she is not a photographer.

 

The people who have to do things differently are folks like me who love the inricacies of the menus and chimp frequently to ensure that we get the colors right on the Christmas decoration shots.  The M10-D, with or without any user customization, is an M7 that takes digital pictures and has exposure compensation if needed.  Sounds like a fit for Molly.  Especially in a household where lots of Leica lenses are already present. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

11 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

Not sure I understand what you mean. Some of us think that the M10's sensitometry is such that it blows highlights much too easily compared to the M9 and the MM. Do you mean that the M10-D blows them even more easily. If that is the case, it would surprise me if Leica went in the wrong direction on this in the M10-D.

At Jono Slack's urging (he has experience in presenting evidence sufficiently strong to convince even Wetzlar that there is a problem) I made some comparisons using an M10 and an M10-D, taking shots of fruits and vegetables in the same lighting, both white balanced on a grey card, same exposures, same tripod position.  What I found  is that the M10-D's files, when developed in the CaptureOne 11 DNG neutral profile, put all intensities slightly brighter (10 points out of 256 in the midtones) than the M10's files, developed the same way.  This had a second result -- If I use the COne Leica M10 generic profile, I blew out the highlights on apples and tomatoes, in the red channel.  This means (to me at least) that Adobe, Capture One, et al, need to modify their M10 profiles to properly handle the M10-D and probably the M10-P as well, unless Leica decides to make some change in firmware (not likely).  So I am quicker to dial in -1/3 or even -2/3 of exposure comp with the M10-D.  And I am watching for the rendering tools to start to notice this difference and manage it.

[Chaemono]

Let’s see how you get out of this one, Scott. 😀

[papimuzo]

Yes Scott,

you well described what was my own finding. The red chanel is way too accentuated. With the RAWs from M10-D I start with the Neutral DNG profile.

I have tested several profiles just to see what happens (CL's, M240, M9, M10...): my feeling is that the RAW files from M10-D are different from those others, and - even if it is less violent - the red chanel seen by C1 needs some attenuation.

We have to built our own profile?

Edited November 29, 2018 by papimuzo
corrections

[scott kirkpatrick]

18 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Let’s see how you get out of this one, Scott. 😀

What is the problem.?  I did an experiment.  It showed a difference.  Leica has not responded, perhaps because Adobe is handling it.  I have contacted Capture One.  Capture One 12 just came out, with so far no explicit support for the M10-D.  So I just work with the DNG neutral profiles and post process a little.  I posted a basket of fruits in the image thread of this forum.  They come out fine in the neutral profile, which COne supplies automatically.  If I manually switch to the Leica M10 generic profile for that image, I get light spots on the red of the apples.  There is nothing that can't handled, just a bit more work. 

[Chaemono]

I traded in my M10 for the M10-P so I can’t compare. I take your word for it. As you said, the M10-D and the M10-P use the same firmware file and, therefore, likely the same stock profile. I’m really impressed with the M10-P.. In the link below, no different fruit colors but a lot of red as captured by the camera and as interpreted by Preview. The file was opened in Preview and the picture was exported as a JPEG. It wasn’t touched, no sharping, no adjustments whatsoever. Of course, the lens is really something. It’s as if the camera has more DR. BTW, there will be more pictures in this gallery later   

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-232Tmz/

Edited December 1, 2018 by Chaemono

[scott kirkpatrick]

Love those gull-wing Mercedeses.  Incidentally, since there is nothing but solid color or black in your car show pictures, how did you handle (or overcome) automatic white balance?  I was wondering if the BMW which looks sorta orange, was meant to be some stronger red color.  It shares its frame with an orange car.  Jono Slack, in his reviews, likes to include pure color shots, but is careful to leave his color balance controls set to daylight (6500 K) as the starting point for any rendering tool. I use the default auto white balance, and find  outdoors it is fine, but indoors in today's lighting, I will need small corrections.

[mdemeyer]

6 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Love those gull-wing Mercedeses.  Incidentally, since there is nothing but solid color or black in your car show pictures, how did you handle (or overcome) automatic white balance?  I was wondering if the BMW which looks sorta orange, was meant to be some stronger red color.  It shares its frame with an orange car.  Jono Slack, in his reviews, likes to include pure color shots, but is careful to leave his color balance controls set to daylight (6500 K) as the starting point for any rendering tool. I use the default auto white balance, and find  outdoors it is fine, but indoors in today's lighting, I will need small corrections.

6500K seems awfully high for daylight.  More like 5500K, isn’t it?  6500K would be more like open shade (largely lit by blue sky).

But your question is a good one regarding how the images were color balanced...

Edited December 2, 2018 by mdemeyer

[scott kirkpatrick]

I think it varies more than we realize.  Here's a shot outdoors on a partly cloudy day.  Auto ISO of 200, Auto WB reads out at 5800:

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L1008945 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr M10-D M24/2.8@f/5.6

But if I set "Daylight" fixed White Balance, the Leica writes a set of RGB levels that are to be mapped into neutral grey, and Capture One reads them out as 5389 K -1.8 shift (that's in the green direction, I believe) regardless of the subject matter.

 

Incidentally, here's an amusing surprise.  With FOTOS, you can take selfies of infinite recursion:

L1008949 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

just a test shot, with the wrong lens to really wring this one out.

 

[Chaemono]

First, Scott is right, the BMW was meant to be a stronger red color. But it didn't harmonize as well with the yellow car so I made it look a bit more orange. The red in the stock profile or the way it's rendered either in Preview or in LR is not quite accurate.

Second, I think, we are spoiled with AWB on the M10. I had the Z7 with me yesterday at the museum as well. As a side note, I wanted to try 28 mm and 75 mm M lenses on it to check for vignetting and corner sharpness (Z7 is less sharp wide open in the corners even with the 75 mm than the M10, as I expected). Of course, everything was handheld but I took the same shots with my M10-P at the same shutter speed. IBIS was turned on on the Z7. I'll post those comparisons in the image section of this forum later. But back to AWB of the M10-P. Below two shots of the Alfa Romeo with AWB by the cameras. These are out of LR. To me, between the α7R III, the Z7, and the M10-P, AWB works best most of the time with the M10. But it can be off in artificial light at higher ISO levels and then colors may be affected. But this is not what I saw yesterday. The M10-P set at AWB consistently produced of cooler look inside the museum than the Z7. I prefer as a starting point a less warm look in the Raw files. BTW, I will post links to Raw files in that thread. 

 

Z7 + 75 Noctilux-M with AWB exported from LR 

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M10 + 75 Noctilux-M with AWB by the camera exported from LR