Why the M240 (and its siblings) is still the best M platform

[Exodies]

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6 hours ago, jdlaing said:

The noise can be controlled with the image engine. Everybody thinks the sensor is some magical entity. It is but a mindless brick with capabilities that can only be brought out by the processing engine.

Noise doesn’t come in the digital part, it appears in the analogue to digital conversion which is done by the sensor.

[jaapv]

Errr...As far as I know the ADC is a separate chip, and whilst it does generate electronic circuit noise and quantitation noise -hopefully little- the main part of the noise is generated by the sensor itself, mainly in the form of photon shot noise and to some extent dark current shot noise. Dark shot noise is a thermal effect which Leica eliminates by LENR.

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[Exodies]

From an Edmund Scientific note about sensors

Table 1: Comparison of (CCD) and (CMOS) Sensors
Sensor	CCD	CMOS
Pixel Signal	Electron Packet	Voltage
Chip Signal	Analog	Digital
Fill Factor	High	Moderate
Responsivity	Moderate	Moderate – High
Noise Level	Low	Moderate – High
Dynamic Range	High	Moderate
Uniformity	High	Low
Resolution	Low – High	Low – High
Speed	Moderate - High	High
Power Consumption	Moderate – High	Low
Complexity	Low	Moderate
Cost	Moderate	Moderate

 

On at least some CMOS sensors the ADC is done on chip.

[jdlaing]

42 minutes ago, Exodies said:

From an Edmund Scientific note about sensors

Table 1: Comparison of (CCD) and (CMOS) Sensors
Sensor	CCD	CMOS
Pixel Signal	Electron Packet	Voltage
Chip Signal	Analog	Digital
Fill Factor	High	Moderate
Responsivity	Moderate	Moderate – High
Noise Level	Low	Moderate – High
Dynamic Range	High	Moderate
Uniformity	High	Low
Resolution	Low – High	Low – High
Speed	Moderate - High	High
Power Consumption	Moderate – High	Low
Complexity	Low	Moderate
Cost	Moderate	Moderate

 

On at least some CMOS sensors the ADC is done on chip.

What “chip”?

[Exodies]

The sensor chip, chip signal - digital.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Exodies

[jdlaing]

Worthless without an image engine. And all it is is a wafer.

[jaapv]

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6 hours ago, Exodies said:

From an Edmund Scientific note about sensors

Table 1: Comparison of (CCD) and (CMOS) Sensors
Sensor	CCD	CMOS
Pixel Signal	Electron Packet	Voltage
Chip Signal	Analog	Digital
Fill Factor	High	Moderate
Responsivity	Moderate	Moderate – High
Noise Level	Low	Moderate – High
Dynamic Range	High	Moderate
Uniformity	High	Low
Resolution	Low – High	Low – High
Speed	Moderate - High	High
Power Consumption	Moderate – High	Low
Complexity	Low	Moderate
Cost	Moderate	Moderate

 

On at least some CMOS sensors the ADC is done on chip.

7

Yes - may I quote from that site about noise?

 

 

Quote

This leads to the high speed of CMOS sensors, but also low sensitivity as well as high fixed-pattern noise due to fabrication inconsistencies in the multiple charge to voltage conversion circuits.

1

 

[Exodies]

Yes. My point is that the data comes off the sensor chip digitised, with noise already applied.

[IamTheDistance]

 The m240 and later the m262 were my first options when I was looking for a M camera. I had two options for the same price (second hand): Leica m240 with a 35mm f/2.4 + Leica Q or just Leica M10 with a 35mm f/2.4. Finally bought the M10 option because of the better sensor performance and the different feeling of the viewfinder but I have to say that I felt good testing the m240. Maybe the first option would be better? hahaha

[microview]

I never really liked the M10 so went back to the M262. Interestingly they are both close in weight but subjectively the thinner M10 feels heavier in the hand than the (M240-thickness) 262, with its aluminium top-plate. I get on better with the back button options than with the 10's ISO button, for example, and I can live happily with the less extended ISO range of the 262. But these things are entirely personal. 

[Jethro]

So much with a tactile Leica or any good solid camera seems to come with having the time to bond with its form, perhaps? I recently sent my M262 back to Germany for rangefinder recalibration (great service by the way from Leica Mayfair). I feel so comfortable with that body, now my only camera, that even using the M240 kindly loaned me by Leica Mayfair felt a bit alien, probably down to the sightly more fussy menu system. I went over to Leica for its classic minimalism, loving my M8 and M-E prior to this (if I hadn't got spooked by sensor corrosion I'd still be with my M-E, what a beauty). These came to replace my Nikons when they became too digital, in the desire to hark back to the good old days of shooting architecture with a Nikon FM2 with shift lens and other primes.

[setuporg]

I'm strangely moving back in time, with the M10 being my very first Leica but taking delivery of an M60 tomorrow.  Can't wait to get the very first screen-less digital Leica, even when the M10-D is near.  And of course feel the stainless steel make.  We'll need to see what the ISO is like after M10 -- hopefully the Luxes will deliver...  In preparation, I've read everything that was said about the M60 when it was announced, tried, lived with, as I was reading all those blog posts without being able to get it then.  It was the system that got me into wanting Leica, and feels like coming home.  My M10 is in Allendale having its ISO knob reattached inside and its rangefinder adjusted...  So it will be an interesting experience -- it will also be the first testing the Summilux 75mm/1.4 I just got, that looks like new.  The only M mount I have around the house today was the Novoflex Hasselblad X1D adapter, so I tested it can focus fine today.  The real test will come tomorrow, shooting a roll of SD DNGs and then loading them into an iPhone via an adapter in a café!:)

Edited December 5, 2018 by setuporg

[LocalHero1953]

I'm another one who doesn't see a big enough benefit in M240P, M10, M10-P to make a change. I'm not immune to aesthetics, but the slimmer M10 body and better OVF/RF doesn't outweigh the lack of other new functionality that makes a significant difference to how and what I can photograph. TBH, after experience with the CL and SL, the small differences in size and weight in the M range are neither here nor there. And for one who wants a truly silent shutter, the absence of one in the M10 range was a deal breaker.

Sadly, though, my use of the M240 is now being squeezed out by the CL/TL2 at the light end, and by the versatility of the SL at the large end. I can't justify to myself keeping it any longer, and it will be traded in for either a TL wide zoom, or a SL 75 or 90. Two wide angle M lenses will go with it, but I'll keep the rest of the M lenses - the M11 or M12 might be tempting in a few years time😉.

Edited December 5, 2018 by LocalHero1953

[setuporg]

And the M60 is finally here.  So amazing.  Just perfect!

[setuporg]

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Jeff S]

With a full case, all Ms can appear screen-less...and fatter.  

Jeff

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

With a full case, all Ms can appear screen-less...and fatter.  

I use the excellent M10’case with the magnetic flap that hides the LCD just fine.  And I also have a Luigi full case for it that has a flap that is harder to open as it snaps on both sides.

But with the M60, there is no way, or need, to try to pry.  The initial feedback from the M10-D shows the dismay of the people who’ve just eaten their cake at not having it too: the DNG uploads in 45 seconds!  The WiFi takes 30 seconds to start!  I can’t set non-coded lenses on the app!  The M60 and M-D say upfront: abandon all hope to view or fiddle.  And that’s what is really brave.  The CEO of Leica who signed each M60 trusted us to handle them.  Each M-D owner knows what he or she is doing.  Let’s keep it that way!

[Jeff S]

It’s all about making the pics one likes and enjoying the process getting there.  Good to have many fine choices these days.

Enjoy!

Jeff

Edited December 7, 2018 by Jeff S

[setuporg]

Indeed, and the community here is the most amazing.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mike3996]

I just got a pristine MP240 for 2900 € and while there were  less than pristine M240's around for 600 € less I went with this one with a satisfied mind. Coming from Leica Q which I regard a very current camera the M240 holds its own very well!