On the great, super, very excellent M10-D thumb grip

[patrickcolpron]

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15 hours ago, pgh said:

 I think you could swap out Nikon or Sony, as both are full buttons and functions beyond the Leica. 

Problem is I already have a bunch of Nikon cameras and lenses... I agree I could swap either and would probably have an easier life with Sony for video but... didn't want to repurchase a bunch of lenses all over again - so I stuck it out with Nikon

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[Tragg]

I came to the M10 via the M3 and M2. I've owned other digital cameras, including Nikons and Canons but found that the technology - instead of helping - simply got in the way. Im not a technophobe and have no problem in understanding the various menus and functions but at the end of the day, ISO, shutter speed, aperture and white balance are all that I use. The M10 feels and functions much like a film camera and having set the parameters that suit my needs I rarely use the menus. Rangefinder cameras are not ideal for all situations and I have other cameras that are better for close up work and so on. So, nothing 'fake' about the M10. It's a tool - albeit and expensive one - that is capable of producing superb images. Like all cameras, it will suit some photographers and not others. There's plenty to choose from out there. Vive la différence!

[indergaard]

On 11/12/2018 at 5:03 AM, gotium said:

I recently rented an a7iii in the hopes of finding a real (non-fake) camera that I could enjoy at far less expense. After 45 minutes of intense irritation with menus, buttons and settings trying to do just the simplest of things (say, like focus a lens?) it went back in the box. For me, a non-professional with a hobby, using a non-fake camera would just mean that I stop taking photos. 

You gave up after 45 minutes of initial setup and learning a new tool? Oh, the difficulties in life.

[gotium]

Just now, indergaard said:

You gave up after 45 minutes of initial setup and learning a new tool? Oh, the difficulties in life.

45 minutes was more than enough...

[M9reno]

Regarding the lever, a classic Leica M mechanical feature re-purposed as a thumb-rest, I think Erwin Puts puts it best:  

"The new Leica M10-D is described by Leica AG as a digital body with an analog soul. The marketing people have still not understood the real difference between analog and digital, but I would say that the more appropriate description would be an analog body with a digital soul."

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/files/6ec141ce14cc61621f28d92122632644-118.html

[KlausAmMac]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb M9reno:

Regarding the lever, a classic Leica M mechanical feature re-purposed as a thumb-rest, I think Erwin Puts puts it best:  

"The new Leica M10-D is described by Leica AG as a digital body with an analog soul. The marketing people have still not understood the real difference between analog and digital, but I would say that the more appropriate description would be an analog body with a digital soul."

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/files/6ec141ce14cc61621f28d92122632644-118.html

I think it may better be described in three rather than two statements:

An analog body - a digital engine and the whole package - with a analog soul.

maybe no marketing punchline, but I guess that’s it.

Klaus (shooting with a M10-D)

[jonoslack]

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On 11/14/2018 at 2:46 AM, pgh said:

Regarding the Sony, I'm amazed at the lack of effort/time/patience people seem willing to put into learning the tools. 

Read the manual for a few minutes, configure items as you like, and don't worry about it again. I find the Sony cameras very responsive and user friendly once you learn them, and learning a new tool isn't a bad thing - there are more buttons because there is so much more that they can do that is actually, very potentially, of practical value to the average photographer. They are no more shooting with a computer than an iphone or a digital Leica. The design is different, but it expands the scenarios you can use the tool for in a different way. The Leica is elegant and works very well for what it does, the Sony works in many more situations and has it's own functional, practical, (not to mention image quality) benefits. 

As for the M10-D - the concept strikes me as silly. I like the M's for the rangefinder and the compactness. I can do without the rangefinder if need be. I'm not into faux nostalgia, just the smallest full frame, interchangeable lens solution. It better feel amazing in hand for that price, with that sensor, and that lack of features. 

Quite agree. There's no excuse for not getting to grips with the technology, and I certainly did when I was using the Sony

But, But, the problem I did have is that, having set my A7ii up the way I liked I would be shooting, and then I'd accidentally press a button and I was in an unfamiliar world! I'm probably old and stupid, but I relish the fact that when I pick up my SL/CL/M10 I know EXACTLY what all of the rather small number of buttons is going to do, and if I press one in a moment of excitement or passion I do actually know what's going on (which is not the case with most of the cameras I've owned). 

 

 

[earleygallery]

On my Leica M2 I can use the film wind lever as a kind of grip once I’ve wound on and cocked the shutter (winding film and cocking the shutter being its primary purpose of course). 

As soon as I release the shutter the ‘grip’ will move and if I really used it as a grip I could easily end up dropping the camera as a result!

However, using the form factor rather than the function of a film advance lever is novel.

in the Epson camera it was still a functional item to cock the shutter & it would behave in the same was as my M2 in that as soon as you fire the shutter it’s no longer a ‘grip’.

[pico]

16 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

and then I'd accidentally press a button and I was in an unfamiliar world!

Would it be good if there were a sliding switch somewhere that told the camera to "lock my options"? Dunno.

 

[erl]

On 11/15/2018 at 2:45 PM, gotium said:

I think I might be an old dog (gulp)

Don't worry. Old dogs may not be as nimble, but they are wiser, through experience.

[pico]

Old age is a blessing  when we realize we have far fewer years before us than behind us and when we remember our youth was rife with opportunities for ruin and early death. We are on the other side now and there is another side after this one. Enjoy.

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by pico

[Tragg]

19 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Quite agree. There's no excuse for not getting to grips with the technology, and I certainly did when I was using the Sony

But, But, the problem I did have is that, having set my A7ii up the way I liked I would be shooting, and then I'd accidentally press a button and I was in an unfamiliar world! I'm probably old and stupid, but I relish the fact that when I pick up my SL/CL/M10 I know EXACTLY what all of the rather small number of buttons is going to do, and if I press one in a moment of excitement or passion I do actually know what's going on (which is not the case with most of the cameras I've owned). 

 

 

A well designed camera should be intuitive to use. Anything that gets in the way of the creative process is a hindrance rather than an asset. 

[ramarren]

21 minutes ago, Tragg said:

A well designed camera should be intuitive to use. Anything that gets in the way of the creative process is a hindrance rather than an asset. 

Indeed. The issue and debate is always about what "anything that gets in the way" means.

 

18 hours ago, pico said:

Old age is a blessing  when we realize we have far fewer years before us than behind us and when we remember our youth was rife with opportunities for ruin and early death. We are on the other side now and there is another side after this one. Enjoy.

 

"Age and  treachery always wins over youth and innocence."

I have no problems with complexity, but I do get annoyed by poor design that puts the complexity in front of me as an obstacle rather than helps me deal with the complexity, or when the implementation of the complexity is poor enough to make it more complex than it needs to be even given what it is attempting to achieve.

For instance, one of the recent cameras in my cabinet has an interesting feature to enable the self timer: you "double click" the shutter release and it automatically runs the self timer. Sounds neat, but physically doing it is somewhat fussy: If you don't press the release just right, it fires immediately rather than ten seconds later. It's easy to not press it just right since typically when you're trying to use the self timer, you've got the camera sitting on a shelf or rock and are not holding it as you normally would for hand-held shooting. So: a neat idea, but it would be simpler and more consistent to just have a button or switch to enable the self timer and could then just press the release to start it. 

The M-D 262 is a truly simple camera, with no features to speak of and no options to get in your way, and in its limitations and constraints is something of an ideal peak. The M10-D is a full-featured M10-P with screen and configuration controls off-loaded to a paired device to achieve ergonomic improvements in use. Two completely different design concepts.

The faux wind lever aka thumb rest on the M10-D irks me simply because it doesn't work for me at all; it seems a foolish nod to providing a better grip, where a small change to the body shape would have done a better job IMO.

 

[Tragg]

8 minutes ago, ramarren said:

Indeed. The issue and debate is always about what "anything that gets in the way" means.

 

That is of course a personal decision. We aren't all trying to do the same thing or achieve the same end result.

 

 

[indergaard]

1 hour ago, Tragg said:

A well designed camera should be intuitive to use. Anything that gets in the way of the creative process is a hindrance rather than an asset. 

I guess that's why most of the award winning photographs in the last decade has been made with Leica cameras. Oh wait... I guess most of the creators used equipment that hindered them, and that the results would have been much better even still, if they just used a Leica.

Right?

I love my M10 and MP,  but come on. I'm so tired of hearing the same old BS from some Leica users over and over and over again.
The fact of the matter is most rewarded and awarded photography in the last decade or two (or even 5) has not been made with a Leica. It has been made with one of those awfully big, heavy and complicated SLR's/DSLR's, with all these features and buttons that nobody needs or wants. Ah, these complicated tools that creators can't use! ...

Yet, some how... They made it work.

Edited November 19, 2018 by indergaard

[ramarren]

5 minutes ago, indergaard said:

I guess that's why most of the award winning photographs in the last decade has been made with Leica cameras. Oh wait... I guess most of the creators used equipment that hindered them, and that the results would have been much better even still, if they just used a Leica.

Right?

I love my M10 and MP,  but come on. I'm so tired of hearing the same old BS from some Leica users over and over and over again.
The fact of the matter is most rewarded and awarded photography in the last decade or two (or even 5) has not been made with a Leica. It has been made with one of those awfully big, heavy and complicated SLR's/DSLR's, with all these features and buttons that nobody needs or wants. Ah, these complicated tools that creators can't use! ...

That simply says that most great photographers are willing to manage adversity in the face of their limited resources in order to do their art.

 

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Edited November 19, 2018 by ramarren

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

...

The M-D 262 is a truly simple camera, with no features to speak of and no options to get in your way, and in its limitations and constraints is something of an ideal peak. The M10-D is a full-featured M10-P with screen and configuration controls off-loaded to a paired device to achieve ergonomic improvements in use. Two completely different design concepts.

...

Hi Godfrey,

Excuse the clip.  I agree with you on the thumb rest, but it’s something I could get used to, I think.  I used to use the advance lever on my Nikons that way - closed, the shutter release was locked..

I’m not sure I agree with you on the differences between the M-D and the M10-D.  If you leave your phone in your pocket and never use the EVF, how different are the two cameras in reality?  Focus, aperture, shutter and ISO. What else is there that you don’t want?

John

[ramarren]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m not sure I agree with you on the differences between the M-D and the M10-D.  If you leave your phone in your pocket and never use the EVF, how different are the two cameras in reality?  Focus, aperture, shutter and ISO. What else is there that you don’t want?

 

That is the point, John:

• The M-D is utter minimalism and simplicity with almost literally no options. It is what it is, complete and fully transparent, with nothing to configure other than the time and date, and is no more than that. It appeals to folks like me a lot—most experienced photographers can figure out everything on the M-D in less than ten minutes of looking at one. I like the constraints, I find they help me think outside the box more. 
• The M10-D is a full featured camera that gives you the same ergonomics and feel as the M-D when in use until you want to use the additional features. Then you pull out your smartphone and take advantage of the additional capabilities and configuration options. Of course, you also have to go through some configuration efforts to set it up to be what you want when you're using it ... such as: Do you want to use the EVF? Do you need to set a lens profile for an uncoded lens? What size and quality level JPEG files? et cetera. 

The M10-D brings the ergonomics and use model of the ultra-minimalist M-D (aka "M7 with a digital sensor") to the full feature level of other modern digital Ms in a reasonably sensible way, modulo the changes in things like the ISO setting and EV compensation controls, etc. There's nothing bad about that and a lot to be said positive about it; it's just a different design notion. I suspect that the audience for the M10-D is somewhat larger than the audience for the M-D ... most users today seem to want all the configuration possibilities.

There are times when I do too.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[IkarusJohn]

For me, I would prefer even less (the M Edition 60 was ideal).  The ability to use the Fotos App and EVF when you need it is a huge plus for me.  I envisage using it for initial set up, then not at all. The EVF, rarely.

My preference would have been to lose the front button, the function button on the top deck and the rear wheel, leaving only the bare minimum of physical contrls.  Sadly, that would have driven the cost through the roof. The reason I never went for the M-D is because it was effectively an M(240) - a camera I never liked much. 

Life is about compromise, I guess.  While the residual wheels and buttons would be better removed, I can understand why Leica stuck with the base body.

Edited November 19, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[pgh]

3 hours ago, indergaard said:

I guess that's why most of the award winning photographs in the last decade has been made with Leica cameras. Oh wait... I guess most of the creators used equipment that hindered them, and that the results would have been much better even still, if they just used a Leica.

Right?

I love my M10 and MP,  but come on. I'm so tired of hearing the same old BS from some Leica users over and over and over again.
The fact of the matter is most rewarded and awarded photography in the last decade or two (or even 5) has not been made with a Leica. It has been made with one of those awfully big, heavy and complicated SLR's/DSLR's, with all these features and buttons that nobody needs or wants. Ah, these complicated tools that creators can't use! ...

Yet, some how... They made it work.

Because they're the most versatile tools I guess ha.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/1971689235/nikon-dominates-world-press-photo-2018-camera-breakdown

I love my M10 too but yea it's a specialized thing with a lot of shortcomings and the M10D is even slightly more specialized for more $. Not a sound business decision for a professional but a great luxury buy/necklace.