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28 elmarit wont fit the M3


stephengv

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I have the new 28 Elmarit ASPH II, I want to play around it with my M3. I know the viewfinder wont cover the 28mm, I just want to use the combination for fun.

 

I cant screw the lens to the mount. The red dot of the lens hits the lens release button. 

Anyone has a similar experience? 

 

For non leica lenses, like voigtlander 15, 21 I have no problem using it with my M3. While my 35 Summicron asph have no problem also.

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Hum.. Tricky question… I haven't the Elmarit 28 asph, but fact is that in recent lenses the heights at which the red dot is positioned are various (from  left : Summarit 75 - Macro Elmar 90 1st - Summicron 35 asph 1st) : as you can see at left , it can be positioned very next to the flange:

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But on my M3 (an old "dual stroke" item : 872.457) there is no interference between red dot and lens release button, thanks to the cutout here evidenced, so that I can Mount on it even the Summarit 75 shown above :

How is your M3 in this detail ? I don't know if the cutout (on button and collar) has been always present (surely others do know)

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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The cutout is on my ‘55 DS and ‘62 SS, so I’d guess that isn’t the issue. I have had some non-Leica lenses touch the ends of the ring around the button.

Didn’t Leica increase the body diameter of the base of some lenses recently?

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Only on M3 !

Out of curiosity, as I've never try Elmarit-M asph.28mm on M3, same result on my two M3.

The two M3 do have the cutout as Luigi's picture show above.

When mounting 28mm asph. the len's red dot hit the border of the lens release guard.

So I was unable to mount the lens = just a fraction of millimiter.

File a bit the guard or remove the red dot from the lens may cure.

I prefer mounting the 28mm asph. on my other M 😇. with 28mm frame lines or not.

Tried on M2/M4/M5/etc. = ok with this very nice lens 👍

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48 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

When mounting 28mm asph. the len's red dot hit the border of the lens release guard.

 

Just a curios, hoping you have a caliper, how much is the distance between flange and red dot (bottom) on the 28 asph ?  As I told, it's my Summarit 75 which has the dot nearest to the flange… and it's 3,5mm (5mm on the MEM 90) :

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 With a diameter that, measured between the unknurled areas, is not far from 55mm  (probably around 54,8)

And this lens mounts on the M3 with no critcity… the dot doesn't touch neither the button nor the collar .. I'd say with at least 0,5mm of clearance over the collar...

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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The rigid 50mm Summicron - which was a typical lens for the M3 - had the red dot right a the position of the release button; without the buttons's cutout the two would have collided:

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Though the base of the lens had a smaller diameter with a conical form, which ensured there would be no problem. 

So Leica made a mistake by the design of the 28mm Elmarit asph, either making the lens too fat at its base or putting the red dot too low. 

 

 

 

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I think mine has no "cut out" its a 1955 Dual Stroke. Here is the M3 and the 28 Elmarit ASPH II

 

 

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1 hour ago, UliWer said:

 

So Leica made a mistake by the design of the 28mm Elmarit asph, either making the lens too fat at its base or putting the red dot too low. 

 

 

 

That's a right conclusion : a design error, de facto… backwards compatibility has been a short of flagship for Leica… and they even make specific warnings in case… in this occasion, they made a small mistake … and at the end someone has made it emerge… :rolleyes:

Btw, in the meantime I realized that my lens with the smallest dot-to-flange distance (apart the special case of the "conical" Summicron above illustrated) is not the Summarit 75, but the Elmarit 21 (unasph).. another 1/2 mm less,  to 3mm total : it ALMOST touches the M3 collar… but fits onto.

    

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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So I just discovered their error haha. Thanks. 

4 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

That's a right conclusion : a design error, de facto… backwards compatibility has been a short of flagship for Leica… and they even make specific warnings in case… in this occasion, they made a small mistake … and at the end someone has made it emerge… :rolleyes:

Btw, in the meantime I realized that my lens with the smallest dot-to-flange distance (apart the special case of the "conical" Summicron above illustrated) is not the Summarit 75, but the Elmarit 21 (unasph).. another 1/2 mm less,  to 3mm total : it ALMOST touches the M3 collar… but fits onto.

    

 

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9 hours ago, stephengv said:

So the problem is only with the 28 Elmarit ASPH II. 

I think that the two versions are identical about the built at the base… for me, it's more probable that there is some slight difference between yours and Romualdo's M3 : M3 incurred in MANY small variations during its life… I think that someone in the Forum (there are real experts on M3 details, here) can have some clue about. Also… many M3, were maintained - repaired etc... and the release button is a rather critical  mechanism (simple indeed… but can be heavily used) . Stephen, can you post a picture of your M3, at an enlargement similar to your post #9, but without lens and with an angle of view similar to my post #2  ? Just curios...  B) (*).. given the distance dot-flange quoted by Noctilux (# 7 : 1,5 mm around) ) I am almost sure that an Elmarit 28 asph wouldn't Mount also on my M3... as I told, the Elmarit 21 (3mm) is mountable with a hair of clearance...

(*) Uliwer pic at #8, for instance, gives me the feel of a certain difference from my M3.. the collar looks to have a longer cut than mine)

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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Will this do? 

2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

I think that the two versions are identical about the built at the base… for me, it's more probable that there is some slight difference between yours and Romualdo's M3 : M3 incurred in MANY small variations during its life… I think that someone in the Forum (there are real experts on M3 details, here) can have some clue about. Also… many M3, were maintained - repaired etc... and the release button is a rather critical  mechanism (simple indeed… but can be heavily used) . Stephen, can you post a picture of your M3, at an enlargement similar to your post #9, but without lens and with an angle of view similar to my post #2  ? Just curios...  B) (*).. given the distance dot-flange quoted by Noctilux (# 7 : 1,5 mm around) ) I am almost sure that an Elmarit 28 asph wouldn't Mount also on my M3... as I told, the Elmarit 21 (3mm) is mountable with a hair of clearance...

(*) Uliwer pic at #8, for instance, gives me the feel of a certain difference from my M3.. the collar looks to have a longer cut than mine)

 

Will this do? Thank you for the help 

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Another shot: 

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18 hours ago, UliWer said:

The rigid 50mm Summicron - which was a typical lens for the M3 - had the red dot right a the position of the release button; without the buttons's cutout the two would have collided:

...

Have a look at the size of the cut out here

with this M3 larger cutout on release button, no problem

 

So different size of cutouts in button and collar.

But mine two M3 = same small cutout as Stephen's so that is the problem.

Quote

 

 

Edited by a.noctilux
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2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

 

So different size of cutouts in button and collar.

 

 

Ok friends… I think we've sorted it out with the above conclusion (our Forum is GREAT… ;))

If you look at Uliwer pic , its cutout is about tangent to the inner screw (and the screw itself, by any evidence, is identical in all the M3s here depicted) and the collar is cut accordingly: it is not tangent in my and other items here depicted : so, different spacing for the lens to rotate with its dot… for curiosity, I measured this length :

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On Uliwer 's M3 it's surely more.    (height of the collar : 2,5 mm… Always unchanged ?)

And… at the end maybe Leica is not so much to blame for their design of the Elmarit 28 asph… :rolleyes: who in their current design dept. still knows something on those little deatils of > 60 years ago ? How many M3 have the "impending button" ? How are the M3s they still have at factory, supposed that a Leica people has the task to verify if… B)?

 

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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I generally don't get all that excited by the "minutiae" of Leica historical quirks. But this is rather more interesting than most.

I note that in uliwer's picture of the Rigid Summicron, the red hemisphere is mounted on a part of the lens that slopes inward at an angle, thus lifting and angling the plastic dot away from the lens release. One wonders if that was an intentional barrel feature, specifically to avoid conflict with the (existing) release-button shield, and not just cosmetic.

/              \

NB - I note the Collapsible Summicron seems to come in two versions - straight barrel, and with the same cant as the Rigid. Further research shows the straight-barrel is a screw-mount Summicron, which makes it more likely that adding the slope to the lens does indeed have to do with the change to the bayonet M mount with release button/flange. Even further research show that the collapsible Elmar also has that sloped lens mount.

And of course, the change in the cutback of the shield itself, as Luigi emphasizes - anyone know which design came first?

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