Have we reached a turning point?

[pgk]

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15 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Even more bizarre when it's applied to cameras! (or toothpaste come to that  )

Yes, I've been wondering about the "brush like a pro" advert.

Anyway, nearly got a Gandolfi up and running along with some 19th century lenses. So I can satisfy myself with the thought that I I get something wrong its most certainly my fault. No adornments on this beastie. Mind you it hasn't even got a shutter ..... yet.

[Paulus]

Am 26.10.2018 um 20:47 schrieb pgh:

Yes, exactly - lots of photographers in recent years ditched Leica because it just wasn't the best for the work. I know that some of the Magnum folks, for instance, migrated to Fuji, Sony, even M43 systems for their work - while many stick with the battle tested dSLRs. There are some interesting photographers out there using Leica - Gus Powell, Daniel Arnold, Andre Wagner, Matt Stuart come to mind - and they on occasion are affiliated with the brand - but the brand seems to really gravitate towards eye candy work for its marketing these days. If it makes them money I can't blame them I guess, but it definitely isn't inspiring to me.  

Eddy Wessels would like this one , if it was a Monochrom, because it fits in his strategy for being " with a film" type camera, which the people see as not professional. So the M10-D should have a market with those pro's :

http://www.eddyvanwessel.com

 

 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[indergaard]

2 hours ago, adan said:

And - BTW - when someone is a forum newbie with 38 posts, they are by definition not the smartest kid in the room. You are not God's Gift newly arisen to lead the poor L-Camera Forum out of the darkness - until you have a track record here proving (not just claiming) superior insight and knowledge (as opposed to opinion and ego). So knock off the lectures and sarcasm.

You take the internet a little bit too seriously. A forum is a forum. It's easy to discuss on a forum via the internet - There are no eye-contact or body language, or any other way to determine credibility or level of knowledge.

Just because you put a lot of effort into formulating your forum replies doesn't mean that you gain more credibility on the internet. It just means you've shared your opinion and experience, but not much else. If you want to prove something it requires more than a forum post. Back up your opinions with proper research and analysis that isn't just based on your personal take on the topic.

The way you formulated your quoted statement literally robbed you of creditability except amongst your closest peers (due to long term and/or personal relations). And it shouldn't be hard to understand why. Knowledge, intelligence, expertise and credibility is not determined by a post count.

Edited October 29, 2018 by indergaard

[Ouroboros]

35 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Eddy Wessels would like this one , if it was a Monochrom, because it fits in his strategy for being " with a film" type camera, which the people see as not professional. So the M10-D should have a market with those pro's :

http://www.eddyvanwessel.com

 

 

Great documentary images by Eddy Van Wessel, but his website is a frustrating mess!

[PeterGA]

7 hours ago, adan said:

My point, Peter, is that as a microscopic company compared to the auto makers, Leica can't offer as many "bespoke" electronic or other options per camera type or across the individual camera lines. Just not economically viable.

Even the relatively simple "A la Carte" options have been reduced to pretty much the cosmetics - leather and the paint and the strap and engraving - no rangefinder options any more (.68/.72/.85 - at least according to the website)

You want a camera with 4.3-million dots - you get a bigger camera with a hump on top (the SL) - and pay for it. You want an ultra-compact camera at a lower price - you get a physically smaller finder chip with 2.3-million dots (the CL).

And - BTW - when someone is a forum newbie with 38 posts, they are by definition not the smartest kid in the room. You are not God's Gift newly arisen to lead the poor L-Camera Forum out of the darkness - until you have a track record here proving (not just claiming) superior insight and knowledge (as opposed to opinion and ego). So knock off the lectures and sarcasm.

Not wishing to be polemic but in my opinion and for my purposes - the two most interesting products Leica makes today are the CL and the SL. The most important product they make today is the M and the biggest fail they make is the S.

The CL is differentiated from the SL by the fact that the CL offers an apc sensor - I see no reason why the CL could not have a much better evf than its 2.3M pixel version and I would prefer if it did.

Regarding the M I think it can be further developed as new sensor technology arrives - but I have a declining interest in M for many reasons all of them idiosyncratic and therefore of no special relevance to the discussion.

Regarding your last paragraph and the general tone of your pointed aggressiveness - I'll let your nonsense speak for itself.

[IkarusJohn]

Hi Peter,

Interesting analysis, based on your opinion, I guess rather than some insider knowledge.  My perspective is that some one here makes a bald assertion based on their prejudice or what they wish was the case, or based on the Rumors site (which can be similarly wild in its predictions), and it gets repeated and quoted thereby gaining traction.  I don't disagree with you at all, but at the same time I tend to listen more carefully to what Leica actually says and also to what may be verifiable fact.

While you may find the S the biggest fail (and it is your opinion, so who can disagree), I seem to recall Leica saying that it has sold more S cameras than it anticipated.

Your post would be better without the last paragraph, I'd have to say (similarly Andy).

Cheers
John

Edited October 30, 2018 by IkarusJohn

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9 hours ago, adan said:

And - BTW - when someone is a forum newbie with 38 posts, they are by definition not the smartest kid in the room. You are not God's Gift newly arisen to lead the poor L-Camera Forum out of the darkness - until you have a track record here proving (not just claiming) superior insight and knowledge (as opposed to opinion and ego). So knock off the lectures and sarcasm.

yikes….such an arrogant & silly comment.

[PeterGA]

10 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Hi Peter,

Interesting analysis, based on your opinion, I guess rather than some insider knowledge.  My perspective is that some one here makes a bald assertion based on their prejudice or what they wish was the case, or based on the Rumors site (which can be similarly wild in its predictions), and it gets repeated and quoted thereby gaining traction.  I don't disagree with you at all, but at the same time I tend to listen more carefully to what Leica actually says and also to what may be verifiable fact.

While you may find the S the biggest fail (and it is your opinion, so who can disagree), I seem to recall Leica saying that it has sold more S cameras than it anticipated.

Your post would be better without the last paragraph, I'd have to say (similarly Andy).

Cheers
John

Hi John,

I'm a Leica nut and have been for 30 years. I don't 'criticise' Leica's product lightly and if I do it is always from personal experience. I think I was one of the first to buy an S2 and at the time I was happy to have dumped a complete Hasselblad system and switch to Leica . At the time the form factor, lens quality, ergonomics etc and IQ was ahead of its competition for what was positioned as Leica's first studio pro offering.

Unfortunately too many people have had too many problems with too many lenses in the S system -myself included - which is why I call the product Leica's 'biggest fail'. I still think it has great form factor, a beautiful mirrored viewfinder  but unfortunately it is lagging behind technological and IQ leadership now. I am not comparing the S to Phase One or Hasselblad traditional body type offerings when I say this been there done those and will never go back...but I believe for those who need the megapixels and like the S /SL form factor Fuji is the no brainer choice with their coming 100MP IBIS and fast autofocus capability and of course EVF and all that comes with that technology. My money is where my mouth is and I am already preparing for it via a GFX50 and a some excellent Fuji glass.

I wish Leica every success with the next iteration of the S.

As for my last paragraph - it isn't my usual form but tight end front rowers don't like being bullied -:)

[IkarusJohn]

Yeah, there's been lots of comment over the AF problems with the S lenses, and the failure to deliver more lenses.  Conversely, those who have had them and weathered the problems proclaim them as Leica's best lenses, and the best lenses for medium format (Gordon springs to mind).

I've looked at the S, and played with it; I'm not going back to medium format.  35mm is so well developed and so well served.

[adan]

OK Peter, this wannabee ref withdraws his premature yellow-card/sin-bin 10 🙌, whichever applies.

And a peace offering (Canon 5D, Leica R 250)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I'm still not sure a 4.3M finder chip can fit into a CL body, though.

[rramesh]

My thoughts:

• The rangefinder on an M is superlative and a photographer needs to experience it to understand its capability and usefulness.
• The current sensor is good and perfect for this camera. 
• The M10-D moves closer to the "Essence" mantra of Leica. The LCD, buttons etc. are superfluous to photo taking for an experienced rangefinder user.
• The thumb rest is probably useful to some but I don't see this as a real issue. It currently has no electronics and so don't pull it out if you don't need to use it. Maybe in future it would have electronics, so you could have the ability to stroke it to activate certain actions.
• Formatting the SD-Card in camera is also not required as I always carry a pre-formatted SD-card as a spare.

If I have to carry a host of accessories, like a visoflex, a camera app and a laptop (for formatting) then it defeats the purpose of "essence". What I would be better off with, is the M10-P.

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by rramesh

[PeterGA]

44 minutes ago, adan said:

OK Peter, this wannabee ref withdraws his premature yellow-card/sin-bin 10 🙌, whichever applies.

And a peace offering (Canon 5D, Leica R 250)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I'm still not sure a 4.3M finder chip can fit into a CL body, though.

Hi Andy

 

No problems here with me. If anything my post was probably off topic anyway. I was thinking what kind of camera would I replace my M10 with ( since rangefinder focusing is becoming increasingly problematic for me) and I thought the CL looked the ticket being light portable and using the L mount - I was just a tad disappointed with evf compared to my SL or the standard Japanese 3.7M pixel evf in Fuji and Sony etc...and I like to stick with Leica if there is a product that suits.

 

atb

Pete

[rsh]

I like the Thumb Rest on the camera and I wish it were part of the regular M10 / M10-P.

[jmr237]

On 10/29/2018 at 12:07 PM, indergaard said:

Just because you put a lot of effort into formulating your forum replies doesn't mean that you gain more credibility on the internet. It just means you've shared your opinion and experience, but not much else. If you want to prove something it requires more than a forum post. Back up your opinions with proper research and analysis that isn't just based on your personal take on the topic.

I have always been struck by the level of fact-based, technical rigor in Adan's comments. I have wondered if he has a scientific background. I think your assessment is off the mark.

[Nordvik]

RE: S the biggest fail:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcbabej/2013/05/08/how-leica-camera-is-reinventing-the-medium-format-market-on-its-own-terms/#724fe6cc46da

 

MEB: An established market, plus established competitors, plus a new target audience for Leica… it all adds up to a tall order. How is is the S-System selling?

StS: There are no industry-wide figures, but we think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year – worldwide, for all brands. We are not yet the market leader (I estimate Phase One to have 40-45% market share), but we already have 20% share – and this is only after 3 years after introduction.

Now consider that we had very limited production capacity all this time. Since launch, we’ve had more orders than we could produce, so the camera always on back-order. With our new factory in Wetzlar, Germany, going on-line next year, we will be able to increase capacity, which of course will help us make further inroads in terms of market share. We have historically succeeded not by copying a market but by reinventing it. We did it back in the day with the M, and we’re doing it now with the S-System.

[mdemeyer]

2 hours ago, Nordvik said:

RE: S the biggest fail:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcbabej/2013/05/08/how-leica-camera-is-reinventing-the-medium-format-market-on-its-own-terms/#724fe6cc46da

 

MEB: An established market, plus established competitors, plus a new target audience for Leica… it all adds up to a tall order. How is is the S-System selling?

StS: There are no industry-wide figures, but we think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year – worldwide, for all brands. We are not yet the market leader (I estimate Phase One to have 40-45% market share), but we already have 20% share – and this is only after 3 years after introduction.

Now consider that we had very limited production capacity all this time. Since launch, we’ve had more orders than we could produce, so the camera always on back-order. With our new factory in Wetzlar, Germany, going on-line next year, we will be able to increase capacity, which of course will help us make further inroads in terms of market share. We have historically succeeded not by copying a market but by reinventing it. We did it back in the day with the M, and we’re doing it now with the S-System.

But that’s a 2013 article.  How relevant today?

[Nordvik]

Who knows? Fuji seems to be popular, but on the other hand Pentax seems to have given up on MF. I think Leica have found a niche market with a compact DSLR MF, and that this niche is big enough for them to continue with the S-system.