Have we reached a turning point?

[pgk]

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The OM10 M-D signifies more than just a new model IMO. Its design is clearly intended to appeal to a specific marketplace and as such it lies between the 'standard' models and the 'special editions'.It will appeal to those who can afford a quirky design redolent of film cameras (lack of display and fake wind-on lever) but adopts new 'consumer' technologies (apps). Now don't get me wrong about this, but I feel that this is actually a model designed to absolutely appeal directly to an 'amateur' market and with no real pretence of being a 'professional tool'. If Leica have got their marketing right then this is perhaps the strategy that they need to adopt - 'professional' photography has changed hugely after digital became mainstream with a much reduced marketplace and many photographers simply moving on. Many traditional skills are no longer needed and (in my view) we see much poorer imagery being used because it is cheap but also because the users no longer recognise imagery as flawed as they would have done in the past.

In the past Leica have (and still do to an extent) played on their connection with the 'great' photographers. That is no longer viable in the digital age because fewer of us are recognising their images. So perhaps Leica have reached a turning point with the M. Trying to keep it updated is becoming harder because it has been a 'mature' design for a very long time. Both its odd mix of innovation and its quirks of design mean that it has to now appeal to a different market?

In the dim and distant past (Victorian times) most innovation in photography was actually driven by wealthy amateurs (those who could afford to experiment). Perhaps we are coming full circle?

[LocalHero1953]

I had to read your second word twice before realising it was a typo, and not a new screenless model from Olympus.......

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[mmradman]

Fitting fake film advance lever is coming full circle of sorts but it will hardly excite majority.  Unless M line starts including some meningful technological advances it will reinforce itself as collectors camera, and probably be derided by majority of the photographic community.  This is real pity as M lenses are good and timeless and deserve to be fitted to a desirable camera by the contemporary standards expected by the wider audience.

[andybarton]

31 minutes ago, mmradman said:

Unless M line starts including some meningful technological advances it will reinforce itself as collectors camera, and probably be derided by majority of the photographic community.

If you want to use a digital rangefinder, it's the only game in town, and probably always will be.

I'm not sure if Leica M cameras are derided at all - seen as a bit odd, maybe.

To be honest, all camera technological advances seem to have stalled these last few years - apart from wireless connectivity, maybe. It's quite difficult to see where cameras will be going even in the near future - just adding mega-pixels for mega-pixels sake and having to accept the compromises that go with that isn't necessarily the way forward IMHO.

[pgk]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I had to read your second word twice before realising it was a typo, and not a new screenless model from Olympus.......

Odd, the edit facility seems to have vanished. Can anyone enlighten me how I now do so?

[mmradman]

25 minutes ago, andybarton said:

If you want to use a digital rangefinder, it's the only game in town, and probably always will be.

I'm not sure if Leica M cameras are derided at all - seen as a bit odd, maybe.

To be honest, all camera technological advances seem to have stalled these last few years - apart from wireless connectivity, maybe. It's quite difficult to see where cameras will be going even in the near future - just adding mega-pixels for mega-pixels sake and having to accept the compromises that go with that isn't necessarily the way forward IMHO.

I never said M is derided. Fitting fake leaver, or another special edition, well that is different story.

I think there are many areas where technological innovation can go on; improved sensors not just increased megapixels, different sensors like mono or Foveon.  Better connectivity, enhanced EVF, either as addvon or built in.  Better power management, again this can be coupled to improved sensors.  Also making camera more affordable, there is already affordable selection of M lenses.

[250swb]

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I for one wouldn't mind at all if Leica regressed even further and made some single coated lenses.

The turning point is that people have found they aren't seeing the gains they imagined from buying the latest equipment, last years photograph still stands up to scrutiny with this years, and they appreciate the convenience of their iPhone anyway. It wasn't so a few years ago, when digital capture was on the crest of a wave. So perhaps photographers can settle down again and appreciate true image quality, not how many pixels are crammed onto a sensor, but how good the image looks at a normal viewing distance. This is what photography was about for the majority of it's film days and the baby was thrown out with the bathwater when the pixel race began. 

[andybarton]

8 minutes ago, pgk said:

Odd, the edit facility seems to have vanished. Can anyone enlighten me how I now do so?

Don't forget that you only get half an hour to edit a post

 

 

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[andybarton]

2 minutes ago, 250swb said:

last years photograph still stands up to scrutiny with this years,

I have a 1m wide print on the wall in my living room taken with a Nikon D700 using a 28 Elmarit-R. What was that, 12 MP? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of the print.

There is a canvas on the wall of a bedroom that is 1500 x 1000mm also taken with that combo, and that certainly wouldn't be an better taken with my M240.

I for one am glad that the days of chasing the next best digital thing might finally be over and maybe we can just go back to taking photographs again, rather than worrying about what might be coming next year, or whether those extra pixels will make us a better photographer - they won't.

[Linford]

I guess I am surprised by all of the controversy surrounding this offering. But, then again, perhaps I shouldn't be..... I am also guessing that many of the people expressing such strong views about this offering would not be candidates to buy this camera anyhow. Anyone considering an offering such as the M60, M-D Type 262 and now this M10-D, perceives it to be purely an aesthetic indulgence. It isn't meant to be practical and is purely experience motivated. As for the lever that is drawing so much lightening, I for one have always used the Thumbs-Up on my M (and SL) cameras. I am very excited to see and feel how this wind-like feature works. I suspect it will make perfect sense once in the hand. To be picky--I would have preferred the ISO dial on the back. However, I would suspect that it would have been (economically) impractical to expect Leica to abandon the top dial for an offering of such limited appeal. Break out your vinyl records, bell-bottoms and smoking pipe and embrace the new-retro! Get happy and enjoy the ride Back to the Future. Cheers--lt

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Linford

[pgh]

I don't think this is a turning point so much as a reinforcement of the interests of the company that have been readily visible for awhile now - namely that the image of the camera is more important than the image the camera actually produces.

Leica's marketing tools are primarily the images made by social media influencers (sometimes they are interesting photographers, but more often their gift is more in getting attention for quick dopamine hits that read well on a tiny screen - which demands a pretty specific type of photography) that rarely have much depth - and they are not widely utilize in the professional sector anymore. There are exceptions, but if you look at most of the best photography today (subjective I know) - Leica rarely has the opportunity to claim their camera was behind it. 

IMO the "thumb rest" is ridiculous and antithetical to how Leica (used to) makes cameras. The very least they could have done was to attached a function to it, perhaps a manual shutter cocking that saves battery life but no, it's an extra piece of metal that is there for looks and nostalgia that has pretty funny try hard marketing behind it. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by pgh

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, pgh said:

Leica's marketing tools are primarily the images made by social media influencers (sometimes they are interesting photographers, but more often their gift is more in getting attention for quick dopamine hits that read well on a tiny screen - which demands a pretty specific type of photography) that rarely have much depth - and they are not widely utilize in the professional sector anymore. There are exceptions, but if you look at most of the best photography today (subjective I know) - Leica rarely has the opportunity to claim their camera was behind it. 

the photographic calibre of most reviewers is disappointingly low (imo), and I wish Leica would engage more with photographers who are producing solid work. I thought they were going to do this when the original Monochrom was launched, and Leica bravely used Jacob Aue Sobol, but sadly it seems that was a once-off . 

...and that silly thumb rest makes me puke 

[pico]

6 hours ago, mmradman said:

I never said M is derided. Fitting fake leaver, or another special edition, well that is different story.

Perhaps 'repurposed lever' would be appropriate.

 

[mmradman]

10 minutes ago, pico said:

Perhaps 'repurposed lever' would be appropriate.

 

Repurposed, yes, to sell nostalgia.

[pgk]

31 minutes ago, pico said:

Perhaps 'repurposed lever' would be appropriate.

Not so sure that it would. For those of us who never used it as a crutch it isn't likely that we'd use it today either, so is is useless rather than repurposed. For those that did, its actually lost half its purpose - is that repurposed? No I don't think that its a valid description in this case either. Its what it is, a vestigial reminder of film camera controls - on a digital camera. A genetically retained but irrelevant hangover from earlier days. Sorry, but you might get the impression that I'm far from impressed by this adornment.

[otto.f]

Interesting note pgk, but actually I don’t see a turning point in your reasoning. At least not at Leica and especially not at Leica M. Already since, say the eighties, Leica has been earning money on amateurs ’play-acting Cartier Bresson’. And the M10-D is just the last and naked variation of this nostalgia, no longer veiled by innovations which are functional but just nostalgic.  Like the Summaron 28 and the Thambar 90. If there is a turning point, it is in the market around Leica, iPhones take over candid and available light photography. Movies are made with just a Canon 5D. 

[pico]

A turning point would be a digital Leica Series-0.

 

[pgh]

2 hours ago, Jono said:

the photographic calibre of most reviewers is disappointingly low (imo), and I wish Leica would engage more with photographers who are producing solid work. I thought they were going to do this when the original Monochrom was launched, and Leica bravely used Jacob Aue Sobol, but sadly it seems that was a once-off . 

...and that silly thumb rest makes me puke 

Yes, exactly - lots of photographers in recent years ditched Leica because it just wasn't the best for the work. I know that some of the Magnum folks, for instance, migrated to Fuji, Sony, even M43 systems for their work - while many stick with the battle tested dSLRs. There are some interesting photographers out there using Leica - Gus Powell, Daniel Arnold, Andre Wagner, Matt Stuart come to mind - and they on occasion are affiliated with the brand - but the brand seems to really gravitate towards eye candy work for its marketing these days. If it makes them money I can't blame them I guess, but it definitely isn't inspiring to me.  

[Agent M10]

4 hours ago, Jono said:

...and that silly thumb rest makes me puke 

The thumb rest is brilliant. Digital cameras are way heavier than their film counterparts. The challenge for Leica has been to keep the same form factor while having to stuff in the innards with digital machinery. The added weight changed the M's haptics. I have a Leica thumb rest on my M10. The thumb rest sticks out and makes it difficult to pack the M in anything. I'd much rather have "that silly thumb rest," even it makes others puke.

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[earleygallery]

Leica are a business. To keep selling product they need to keep releasing new stuff. Some new stuff won't be 'new' but just a rehash of something they already make.

A new release means column inches in the photo press, interest from punters and obviously more sales.

Not every new thing from Leica has to be a serious, well thought out 'solution'. They can make a lot of money (more money?) from selling frippery. As a business why wouldn't they do that?

Professionals use what they use. The demands of a working photographer are very different from the amateur and that's why a lot of pro's use 'inferior' gear. If Leica can make good profits from selling to wealthy amateurs then why should they bother trying to tackle the pro market? They brought out the S range for that reason, but just before the mirrorless boom and it's customers are mostly amateurs, which Leica didn't expect. But they're still selling it which is all that matters.

So no, I don't think we've reached a turning point, but the camera manufacturers have a more difficult challenge to come up with new stuff that's compelling enough to make people 'upgrade' when the old stuff they're using is already way better than they actually need.