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Long live the M-D!


jmr237

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On 10/29/2021 at 5:57 AM, grahamc said:

It's a sad day today.  I have sold my MD-262.

This corner of the forum was my first club house in this forum.   Can I still hang out here please?    :P

Shed a tear for my D please - but it's still in Sydney for the serial number records ! 

Graham,

nothing wrong with that.

Just move on.

Photography has more than gear to be worried of.

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  • 3 months later...

Instead of starting a new thread, I thought I should join the MD-262 discussions here. 

I have a MD-262 for quite some times,  it has natural brassing and a small dent. Not long ago, I impulse purchased a used M10-D (surprisingly hard to find one used). after much effort, I finally found one and I was so excited with the M10-D. Initially, I thought that the M10-D is a "versatile" and "improved" version of the the MD for the following reasons:

  • I like the the "idea" of the possibility to use the EVF for ultra-wide lens. It is an "idea" because I don't own any ultra-wide lens and EVF.... lol
  • The ability to connect to the app so that I don't need to wait till the end of the of day to download and view the photos to my PC. 
  • Thinner body similar to a film M.

I know I can't keep both cameras, and for the first few months I am so certain I will sell the MD-262.

Now, I guess my "honeymoon" period with the M10-D has ended and I realise the MD-262 is the one to keep !! 

My reasons:

  • The app connect function on the M10-D is not bad, but the more I used it, the more I rely on it and then I start to realise the connection (start-up) is not quick enough. My chimping habit came back and I always have the urge to connect to the app after taking a series of photos. To the point which I start asking myself, why don't use a standard M10 with LCD instead (perhaps with the genuine Leica leather half case with LCD cover)?
  • Most of my lens are silver brass (35/1.4 pre-fle, 50/1.4 pre-asph etc) and to my surprise, I found that thicker body of the MD-262 (without any add-on grip or Thumbs Up) is way more comfortable and secure to hold with all my heavier lens. The thinner body M10-D (with or without the built-in fake advance lever extended) is nowhere as stable or comfortable to hold, it really strains my hand more, I think I need a grip or a case with built-in grip for the M10-D. This contradicts to every reviews or posts that I came across, where people praised the thinner M10 body for improved handling but in my user case (i.e. with heavier lens) it is definitely not true. My hand is not huge either, I wear Medium-Large kitchen gloves. Think about that, I guess it is just simple physics, the MD-262 thicker body actually gives me more leverage to counter the heavier front lens and in turns requires less effort to grip the camera with my right hand. 
  • ISO dial, on/off switch & shooting mode selector design on the MD-262 is no doubt superior to the M10-D. I still think the M10 ISO dial is a design fail, it should be a press down /pop up action instead. 
  • For my type of shooting and especially with my F1.4 lens, max ISO I will use is 1600, most of the time I stay between 200-800. I don't see any IQ advantage of the M10-D over the MD-262 at all.
  • I like the MD-262 B&W conversion more than M10-D B&W files.
  • I'm not a pro and don't use the camera to produce income, therefore highlight recovery advantage of the M10 is not a concern for me. I just aim to expose a scene as correctly as possible (or sometimes use bracket exposure). Let "blow out" be "blow out", consider that frame is gone and I learn to avoid the same mistake next frame.
  • To my ears, I found the shutter sound of the the MD-262 is strangely more satisfying than the muted shutter sound of M10-D. 
  • I prefer the black paint finish on the MD-262.
  • Battery? Is there a battery in the MD-262? Honestly, it last so long that I forgot it got a battery inside. This is an important contribution to the feeling of "analogue soul" of the MD-262. 

That's right! I am picking an old, brassed/dented MD-262 over a newer, better condition M10-D (still under warranty!).

I found that the MD-262 is like a fine red wine, it gets better with age, which is quite unusual for a digital camera. 

 

 

 

 

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I forgot to mention about the viewfinder,  I much preferred the constant brightness framelines on the MD-262 vs the viable brightness framelines on the M10-D. On the M10-D, I found that the viable brightness of the framelines can be somewhat distracting. There are many situations which I think the M10-D frameline is too dim, then all of a sudden if I point the camera to a brighter light source/scene, the frameline brightens up but quickly dims. I am not sure if the standard M10 has frameline brightness adjustments, but it seems like the M10-D don't have such adjustment option.

Also, since I wear glasses, the slightly lower viewfinder magnification on the MD-262 allows me to see the entire 35mm frameline a bit easier than the M-10D. 

As far as the overall viewfinder goes, both are pretty close in terms of brightness, focusing patch contrast etc. The M10-D is tiny tiny bit brighter overall and the focusing patch is also a tiny bit bigger (due to the higher magnification). However, in order to notice those differences, I have to A-B both viewfinders repeatedly for at least a couple of times and deliberately look for such differences.

From reading Leica literature on various M10 viewfinder improvements (eg. 30% larger field of view, 50% greater eye relief etc),  I expect the viewfinder improvements would be quite noticeable. But when I first pickup the M10-D, I can't really tell any difference at all. That's why I need to do a few tests comparing the 2 viewfinders hopefully to justify the claim. I am sure Leica's claim of viewfinder improvements are justifiable in terms of actual technical specifications and optical measurements, but in reality (at least for myself, YMMV) the actual perceivable improvements based on my own personal experience is rather minimal. 

Edited by nolove
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On 3/13/2022 at 1:37 AM, nolove said:

I forgot to mention about the viewfinder,  I much preferred the constant brightness framelines on the MD-262 vs the viable brightness framelines on the M10-D.

Many thanks for your preceptive and detailed thoughts here. I didn't know about the variable brightness,

Of course I love my M-D too but sometimes I wonder if the grass is greener on the M10-D side and as I haven't used one I have to go on specs and the experience of other users. I made myself a little comparison chart (as one does) and found the only M10-D benefit for .me. would be EVF for wide angles and macro, while there are many downsides and things I don't like. In fact I don't actually like EVF's either ... 😜

And while I wonder about better IQ in the M10-D, I realise I never have trouble with exposure anyway, perhaps because I too bracket in tricky situations, and have now learnt the ways of the metering. I also saw that DxO Mark shows in terms of dynamic range the M10 (13.2) is almost identical (very slightly worse in fact) to the M240 (13.3).

In February there was a used M10-D for sale at Red Dot Cameras that I had my eye on for a while and when I saw it had been sold, I was not sad ...

 

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Leica MD is a classic.  As long as you can manage up to iso 1600 - then this is the closest to classic Leica.  I love mine but not for everything I photograph.  Canon R3 complement as a COMPLETELY different system for AF and where size does not matter.  M11 / m10 (D) would not change anything - I would still need an AF and longer telephoto system.  So my Leica MD and I will grow old together ❤️❤️

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I wrote something similar here

Thing is, my old M10-D is a boomerang. I sold it and the guy I sold it to decided he didn't want it after 4 months and now I have it back.  I have a history with it and fond memories. 

I'm very confused about what to do: keep the M10-D or the M-D... or both. Or, neither (and seek psychiatric help). 

 

 

Edited by tomconte
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On 3/15/2022 at 7:55 PM, Datsch said:

...................

Of course I love my M-D too but sometimes I wonder if the grass is greener on the M10-D side and as I haven't used one I have to go on specs and the experience of other users. I made myself a little comparison chart (as one does) and found the only M10-D benefit for .me. would be EVF for wide angles and macro, while there are many downsides and things I don't like. In fact I don't actually like EVF's either ... 😜

...............

 

Datsch, that's exactly what happened to me LOL 

It is hard to resist the "grass is greener" mentality and the urge to upgrade when it comes to digital cameras.  

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On 3/17/2022 at 8:58 AM, tomconte said:

......... 

I'm very confused about what to do: keep the M10-D or the M-D... or both. Or, neither (and seek psychiatric help). 

.........

 

Like you, I still have both cameras. In an ideal world, I would love to keep both 😁

My take is, if you always enjoy film photography, keep the M-D. This is the equivalent to a film M but in pure digital format/output/workflow. No other digital camera will come close to the  feel of a M-D/M60 (including the Epson RD1, which I used to have).

The M10-D will appeal to someone looking for a bit of simplicity out of any standard digital M. The M10-D may be simple enough to make some regular digital M users happy, but other users would feel that it is not simple/pure enough. For the later group of users, the M-D would be the fix. 

 

Edited by nolove
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33 minutes ago, nolove said:

My take is, if you always enjoy film photography, keep the M-D. This is the equivalent to a film M but in pure digital format/output/workflow. No other digital camera will come close to the  feel of a M-D/M60 (including the Epson RD1, which I used to have).

 

Precisely why my M-D is my only Leica digital camera. Thanks for the enlightening comparison. 

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11 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

@nolove

I saw in another thread ...

So your choice is keeping M-D and sell M10-D, then ?

a.noctilux 

Yup, I am keeping the M-D and selling the M10-D.  To me, the M-D is just more special. 

Unfortunately, keeping both is too much of a luxury for me. Plus I feel that having both M-D and M10-D are redundant to my usage, they don't have enough point of difference I think. Perhaps M-D pairs with M10-R would make more sense? 🤔

 

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3 minutes ago, nolove said:

...I feel that having both M-D and M10-D are redundant to my usage, they don't have enough point of difference I think...

FWIW I faced a slightly similar conundrum when I brought in the M-D to add to my much-loved M9-P. Sensor-differences apart they both did exactly the same thing and, realising that - for me - using the M-D was a far more pleasureable and productive experience, I made the very difficult decision to sell the M9. It was, however, replaced by an M Monochrom - i.e. something very different - so there was, at least, a Silver Lining at the end of the tale.

Philip.

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I remain convinced that selling my M-D 262 was a mistake, although I try not to look backwards with regrets. Thinking about it, however, the Pixii I ordered is actually quite similar in concept when used standalone without a smartphone connected, albeit in the smaller APS-C format (which I don't mind at all). The addition of a smartphone and the Pixii app nets an interesting expansion of functionality in use, with the major expansion being that it's more convenient to see what you've done with the camera after the fact in the field (by looking at the photos on the phone), so I'm looking forward to the Pixii arriving soon-ish. 

I think occasionally about which M I'd buy if I were buying another M, and I have to say that the M10-M is likely my #1 preference at the moment. I'd take an M typ 246 Monochrom too, that's what I wanted, and ordered, that never arrived ... I bought the Leica SL instead. As always, no regrets: the SL is/was a magnificent camera, but after I retired I realized I had no need for that kind of machine anymore.

G

"Equipment is transitory. Photographs endure."

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, mcpallesen said:

So, I found a used M-D 262 at just over €4,000. Am I crazy to even considering buying it, having both M10-R BP and Q2M? Just love the idea of the M-D. 😊

Not crazy to consider buying it...

IMX (FWIW) whether you enjoy shooting with an M-D Typ-262 will depend on how you go about your photography. Before I bought mine (and as mentioned just a few posts ago) my #1 digi-M was an M9-P. I took around 70,000 snaps with it over the years so it served me well. One day out shooting with the M9 and having my recently-acquired M-D as a 'backup' (or so I expected), however, convinced me that the M-D was the only way to go and, as things transpired, I never once used the M9 again.

'Caveat Emptor'......and, ultimately, good luck in your choice.

Philip.

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