50 APO vs 50 // can’t see any difference

[Stuart Richardson]

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On 10/19/2018 at 11:26 AM, meerec said:

I’m not in the same boat with you @Stuart Richardson. I sail with CL and SL not S and for my purpose 24 MP has been okay. But at the same time, I’d like to see excellent results produced by those lenses. The results, in my opinion, do NOT depend on the number of MPs in the sensor. Some 18 years ago I acquired my very first digital SLR. It was a Canon D10 [not 10D ... that came so much later]. It was a 3.2 MP body (three point two megapixels). I still have many images in my Lightroom catalogue shot with various L lenses from Canon with that body, and even today, these images are not short on beauty. 

I guess this was my point. If you do not need the resolution, then the lens is also overkill. Many important lens characteristics like color, vignetting, bokeh, fringing, distortion and so on will show up on any reasonable sensor, but resolution differences need a high resolution sensor to test. Paying 7000 euros for a lens with resolution for 100mp is perhaps unwise when you only get a 24mp body. It is the positive/negative of Leica lenses. On the downside, they outresolve the body so you don´t get to see all they are capable of, on the upside, they outresolve the body so you need never fear your lens is going to ruin a photo. The vast majority of people would be satisfied with the performance of the standard non-APO 50mm summicron or the 50mm summilux ASPH, both of which are outstanding lenses. Personally, I think the 50mm APO will only make sense when the camera bodies catch up to its resolving power, but others may feel differently. 

[meerec]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The vast majority of people would be satisfied with the performance of the standard non-APO 50mm summicron or the 50mm summilux ASPH, both of which are outstanding lenses

by the way, according to Peter Karbe 50 lux ASPH is an APO lens, it is just not named so

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[pedaes]

Leica gives you Summarit, Summicron x2, Summilux and Noctilux at 50mm. Out of the back catologue the f2.8 Elmar-M shines brightly. Most in black or silver. Pays your money and take your pick. All are cracking good lenses. I think Summarit is pick of the current bunch if you can live with f2.4, and certainly prefered to Summicron non-APO (if you are ok with the max aperture). All IMHO of course.

[sblutter]

Years ago I bought a ASPH 50 'Lux hoping for results better than my trusty 50 'Cron ver4 (1980's?).

I did a bunch of side by side tests in the studio and then on the street.  After just an hour with the Lux my shoulder was killing me and on the computer saw hardly any difference - and pulling focus on Lux was dodgy.  I printed a few A 17x22" at highest quality on Epson 3880 - still no material difference.

I sent the Lux back for full refund.

The M was designed to be with you all day every day, I can't do that with the Lux.

Then I got the most recent 50 Elmar-M (collapsible) - is now my go to 50.  (Also love the 2.5 35 pancake Voightlander)

Small, light, compact, superb optics is all I want. 

I have no idea what Nocto people are thinking, other an obsession then razor thin DOF.  An exhibit of which would surely be repetitious.

I understand the assumption that expensive must be mean quality.  For me, the 'quality' of weight is far more valuable when it comes to shooting with an M.  I feel the same about cars; an appliance design to get you from A to B safely.  If you have extra $$, reputable charities are fine repositories

[Peter Kilmister]

@sblutter At last I feel someone else understands the problems of lugging around a heavy lens all day. I had a Summilux f/1.4 and it is a fine lens. I took some good photos with it.

Buoyed by claims of the best lens ever, I bought a Noctilux f/0.95. What a disaster ... try lugging that around all day! I suspect that for most users they rarely walk anywhere. I walk a lot and I watch the weight that I carry. When a lens weighs more than the camera body it is anathema. Depth of Field on the Noctilux might suit studio portraits but is useless in the countryside where I spend my life. I need good depth of field to capture something other than an eyelash or a brick wall. 

Not surprisingly I sold the Noctilux and bought the APO Summicron f/2.0.

Fantastic lens, small and light, a perfect fit for the M240-P, and it takes beautiful pictures.

I've not tried collapsible lenses because I am told that they are to be avoided with modern digital bodies. 

Not having used a few lenses for a couple of years I might sell them.  The APO Summicron has my vote as the best 50mm lens ever made.

[Jeff S]

Diff’rent strokes, as usual.

I have no problems carrying an M (M10 or MM) with the 50 Summilux ASPH over my shoulder all day. The files and rendering work well in my print workflow.

I rented the 50 APO for a week and found that the compactness actually compromised the ergonomics for me, lacking a fully knurled focus ring, and the  too close aperture ring overly loose (like various other recent M lenses).  The LHSA version has more appealing controls for me, but the add-on hood is awkward (but probably more effective than the small retractable hood on the standard version, which seems to  flare more easily than the Summilux) and it’s far more costly.  In the end, I preferred the Summilux, and got the added speed as a bonus.  

These are personal matters that can only be determined by experience.  Thankfully there are many superb choices for all.

Jeff

[grrr101]

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On 10/20/2018 at 2:54 PM, lexontario said:

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Thank you for these 2 pictures

What seems interesting to me is where exactly are the differences between the 2 pictures

1/ Technically those 2 pictures are really good if not perfect (maybe at 200 % and/or in the corners there is a difference, but that is not the point)

2/ However, when displayed side by side, they are different in a ** qualitative ** way (I cannot find a better word) : one is smoother, more creamy, more subtle ...(also difficult to find better words)

Trying to put it with different words : one is a perfect image, but compared to the other, it is only an image. With the other one you are more into the scene, the various objects sort of "talk" to you (also for lack of a better word)

3/ Someone else posted 4 pictures taken with the regular and the APO summicron. If you look at the last picture of series of 4, you can see that the woman has a little more presence with the APO tann with the non APO (you have more the impression that she is a real person in front of you). Not by much maybe, but it some situations it can make a real difference

4/ All this is not obvious, and at least difficult to formulate, but it can help (only help, the picture must already be good) to go from a very nice picture to a picture that immediately catches your eyes and that you want to look in detail

 

So :

a/ Is the APO 50mm the only lens with which you can make pictures that immediately catch your eye ?      No of course, but not easy to find such lenses. The best modern lenses, cold and very detailed, might not be the best ones for that by the way

b/ Is the quality difference between the 2 lenses worth the price difference (assuming you could buy either) ?  This needs a very personal answer because

> we are clearly as was said in the area of diminishing retourns (you have to pay a lot for small improvements)

> the personality of each lens is as important if not more, than the exact amount of sharpness

For example, I do not know why, personnaly, I was never impressed by regular 50mm Summicrons, but I find the 50mm APO very tempting (but much too expensive, unfortunately)

 

Hope this helps

Guy

 

 

[efreed2754]

On 10/24/2018 at 2:04 PM, grrr101 said:

Thank you for these 2 pictures

So :

a/ Is the APO 50mm the only lens with which you can make pictures that immediately catch your eye ?      No of course, but not easy to find such lenses. The best modern lenses, cold and very detailed, might not be the best ones for that by the way

b/ Is the quality difference between the 2 lenses worth the price difference (assuming you could buy either) ?  This needs a very personal answer because

> we are clearly as was said in the area of diminishing retourns (you have to pay a lot for small improvements)

> the personality of each lens is as important if not more, than the exact amount of sharpness

For example, I do not know why, personnaly, I was never impressed by regular 50mm Summicrons, but I find the 50mm APO very tempting (but much too expensive, unfortunately)

Hope this helps

Guy

Hi.  Believe Guy hit the nail on his “So” following points.  I used the new 50 Summilux for several years and earlier this year traded it and a 50 Cron for the 50 APO.  I see a distinct difference between the APO and the Lux and much prefer it.  Can’t say it’s worth the extra funds as that is a personal decision and a “want” versus a “need.”

FWIW I didn’t see much different between the two lenses in OP’s post.  Someone subtlely suggested shutter speed may have been too slow which seems possible or perhaps focus was a bit off.  Based on the photo I would stick with the Lux; based on my actual experiences I’m sticking with the APO.  People have offered unsolicited positive comments for my APO photos unlike before and I definitely notice differences. 

So please consider reshooting at high shutter speed or with a tripod before deciding.

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by efreed2754

[sblutter]

On 10/23/2018 at 5:18 PM, Peter Kilmister said:

@sblutter

Peter, said, " I've not tried collapsible lenses because I am told that they are to be avoided with modern digital bodies.  "

There are very few collapsible lenses you can't use - that's all over the Forum - mostly 90's.  I've had no trouble & a simple measurement of the depth will confirm.  The Elmar-M is just a hoot & will take you back to the old days!

 

[ta3583]

Rembrandt vs Kandinsky // can´t see any difference

 

[grrr101]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:23 PM, efreed2754 said:

FWIW I didn’t see much different between the two lenses in OP’s post.  Someone subtlely suggested shutter speed may have been too slow which seems possible or perhaps focus was a bit off.  Based on the photo I would stick with the Lux; based on my actual experiences I’m sticking with the APO.  People have offered unsolicited positive comments for my APO photos unlike before and I definitely notice differences. 

So please consider reshooting at high shutter speed or with a tripod before deciding.

 

 

 

Looking accurately on a big computer screen, there seems or might be a difference in focs

> on the first picture the focus seems ont the back of the picture (the word "monopoly" seems sharper)

> on the second picture the focus might be on the front of the picture (the green bucket seems sharper)

Hope this helps

Guy