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War Time 3c with red shutter blinds


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Despite trying several searches looking for any postings on war time 3c cameras with red shutter blinds I have found very little except some learned listings of serial numbers and comments on post war 3c's.

I was looking for somewhere to post the fact that I recently got a 1940 3c with red blinds and a matching 1940 50mm Elmar from a fellow collector.

Having read several different stories about the origins of the red blind fabric and its oozing of black sticky rubber over the past 70-80 years I was very pleased to see that the blinds are in good order on this camera. If fact the whole body is in very nice condition, as is the lens.

I put a roll of FP4+ through it last weekend and everything is working as it should, better than expected. The pictures below were scanned from A4 size darkroom prints.

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Illustrated a Leica IIIc, red curtain, 1941/42 issued, Leitz apparently used this material coming from Kodak, USA, until they ran out of it  and then switched to black parachute cloth.

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Still cca 10 years ago red curtain fabtic was available at Micro Tools i believe, now i so not know any supplier. One supplier from Japan is advertising that he has red curtains but this is just black curtain with red fabric glued on one side. Shutter works, but fabric is too thick, too stiff. Would be happy to learn who can supply red fabric which is close to original.

At home I have SNs of IIIc red curtain, will post it on Wednesday

Edited by jerzy
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2 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

 In general, it has been stated that the red curtain material was used from:

 362,401 (Oct. 39) to 379,226(July 41).

The earliest red curtain camera I have recoded is 362469  and the latest is 379101.

The 367xxx IIId cameras also had red curtains.

and what material was the red curtain made from ?

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9 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

 In general, it has been stated that the red curtain material was used from:

 362,401 (Oct. 39) to 379,226(July 41).

The earliest red curtain camera I have recoded is 362469  and the latest is 379101.

The 367xxx IIId cameras also had red curtains.

This one is 3664xx

thanks for the replys.

Edited by Pyrogallol
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10 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

 In general, it has been stated that the red curtain material was used from:

 362,401 (Oct. 39) to 379,226(July 41).

The earliest red curtain camera I have recoded is 362469  and the latest is 379101.

The 367xxx IIId cameras also had red curtains.

I have 371915 which has what looks like a replacement red shutter curtain. The nearby SN 371922 which is a 'Heer' model, also with red curtain, was sold at Westlicht with a matching 'Heer' Summitar in May 2013.

William

Edited by willeica
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Pirogalol:

The images sent to the tests have a beautiful appearance, there are no signs of light leakage, so it looks like the red curtains are going well.

I did not know that there was the Leica LTM series with red curtains.

Congratulations for this exclusive and beautiful camera.

We hope to see more photos.

a greeting

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  • 2 weeks later...

In the German section I posted a photo in the Kaviar thread of a IIIc with red shutter curtain from a collection I am familiar with. Apparently it is one of the earliest, since the serial number is 362419, from 1940, post 2868 (sorry, I can't figure out how to copy the link to use here).

Lex

 

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  • 1 month later...

I have been offered a red curtains wartime IIIc, later factory upgraded to IIIf. However the curtains are dying being badly mould marked, with big black splodges, so the underlying material (cotton or silk- not sure what Kodak used for the original) will almost certainly be rotten. It would seem that the person who I knew did have some red material, (NobbySparrow), has run out. I would only buy this camera, if I can replace the curtains with a fully functional red curtain cloth. I would think the chances of finding good condition original red cloth curtains, some 75 years later, is becoming increasingly slim. Other than my recent purchase of an UR Nachbildung, I only buy cameras that can be made into full working condition. 

Any updates on the availability of replacement red material? 

Wilson

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Just for the pleasure, an image of one of the red blind IIIc's I had in my collection. This one has serial 375514. Sorry, but forty years ago, I did not take many color pictures…

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The IIIc/f was so cheap, I bought it anyway, splodgy red curtains and all. If I can't get new red curtains, I will leave it as a non-user curiosity but that would very much be second choice. I like to be able to pick up any of my Leicas and use them. 

Wilson

PS The serial number of the one I bought is 374621

Edited by wlaidlaw
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black dots on red curtain is de-vulcanized rubber. It becomes soft, sticky and goes into the red fabric. A lof of original red curtain suffer this, it is hard to find intact ones. And I do not know if there is any method how to stop it.

Some time ago Nobby sent me a sample of his red curtain, some pictures are within the pdf. I mounted them in one camera and in general they work fine. Are more stiff than regular black curtains but speeds are running fine. Is a bit thicker than the original (0,4 vs 0,3mm). However the structure of red silk which he glued on black curtain is not the same, it has stripes.I did not like it. And it has fabric on both sides.

So if you ever will find a supplier of red curtain pls let me know

P.S. I still have a piece of his red curtain, enough for one set. If you wish I can send it to you (or mount in your camera)

red curtain from Japan.pdf

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My red curtain IIIc camera seems to have had a replacement. It is one part light red (silky material) and one part black ( when wound on) . At the 'join' a strip of darker red material is seen, which may be the original material. The is no sign of ribs or stripes on the red part that seems to have been replaced. I have no idea who made the replacement curtain as it was that way when I bought the camera. SN is 371915 and the shutter works very well.

William

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1 hour ago, jerzy said:

black dots on red curtain is de-vulcanized rubber. It becomes soft, sticky and goes into the red fabric. A lof of original red curtain suffer this, it is hard to find intact ones. And I do not know if there is any method how to stop it.

Some time ago Nobby sent me a sample of his red curtain, some pictures are within the pdf. I mounted them in one camera and in general they work fine. Are more stiff than regular black curtains but speeds are running fine. Is a bit thicker than the original (0,4 vs 0,3mm). However the structure of red silk which he glued on black curtain is not the same, it has stripes.I did not like it. And it has fabric on both sides.

So if you ever will find a supplier of red curtain pls let me know

P.S. I still have a piece of his red curtain, enough for one set. If you wish I can send it to you (or mount in your camera)

red curtain from Japan.pdf

Jerzy, 

Many thanks for your very kind offer. I have asked Nobby Sparrow if he has any left. If he has, I will buy some from him, so as not to use up your last piece. However, I have a feeling he may have run out, in which case, I would be delighted to accept your offer to do a CLA and curtains on my IIIc/f. I will let you know when I hear back from Japan. I had a look at the enlarged version of the curtain (the IIIc/f is on the way to me from Bratislava at the moment) and it does look like it was the tarry light proofing material that has leaked through the cloth but then it looks as it it has gone mouldy. 

Wilson

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not sure of I understodd you corretly Wilson...

curtain is silk fabric rubberized on one side, in case of red curtain fabric is red, rubberized side is black. One curtain (as seen on the photo above) is mounted with fabric towards the lens, the other  is mounted with rubberized side towards lens. This is when camera is  wound you will see black rubber even if the curtain has still red fabric.

 

Btw - symptoms on your Leica are typical - this what you see as black dots in reality is devulcanized rubber on rear side which went into the fabric. Devulcanized rubber is sticky, thus shutter does not work properly. In seldom cases o nly one curtain may be affected, I had 2 cases like this.

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Jerzy, 

As I understood the problem, the rubber light-proofing material used on the film side of the red fabric, over many years, can deteriorate, particularly if kept in less than cool dry conditions. This exudes a black sticky tar like substance which seeps through the red curtain material, showing up as black markings. I think this is what happened first to the curtains on my IIIc. I suspect that either the curtain fabric or more likely the degraded rubber has been then attacked by fungus. If you look at my photo, you can see that the fabric has been eaten away where the black material shows against the red. Apparently, the shutter still works and the curtains move. 

I have had a reply from Nobby Sparrow, saying that the red curtain material he had made, did not work to his satisfaction, so he no longer sells it. 

I wonder if a DIY (do it yourself) approach might work? Buy some robust silk twill material in red, cut out the curtains and then use an air brush to paint one side with black bellows repair paint. Alternatively use regular black curtain silk and spray one side red with fabric paint. https://www.hobbycraft.co.uk/tulip-fabric-paint-puffy-red-37ml/592731-1000?glCountry=GB&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrf2N4eue3wIVg0PTCh1HVgRXEAQYASABEgLYevD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds 

Wilson

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Wilson,

firstly apology for my limited english vocabulary...

And I was not very precise when describing where the black dots come from. Yes, rubber deteriorate, becomes sticky and when shutter is released, curtain is wound over the drum touching the rubber which sticks to the red silk. I think that the original red curtain (I've heard that this was pre-war supply from Kodak and Leitz was using it in a wartime when black curtains supply was out) had one more layer between fabric and rubber, white layer. Possibly to prevent that the rubber goes into fabric and decolours it. You may see this white layer over black rubber on one of original red curtains which i replaced, both sides of the same curtain are shown.

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I think I will try some DYIs as you suggested, both variants - red fabric with black paint as replacement for rubber and repaint the black curtain with red fabric paint. The question is when :-)

Edited by jerzy
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