what is displayed in the viewfinder with M10 and M10-P

[Dr No]

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Hallo first post here.

I agree with the OP and one thing that also really irks me is that in live view there is no option to silence the information on the screen.

Why is it not possible to have  the screen with the image, empty of all information?

On the 240 a bar blacks out a portion of the screen and there are numbers all over it. I have old cameras which you can turn the screen on and then press an info/display button to cycle through different modes and almost always allowing an uncluttered view.

I can't imagine any photographer who wants portions of the screen blacked out to display numbers. This is a real problem for me.

is this still the same way for the M10?

[a.noctilux]

Welcome Dr No,

The OP question is informations when RF is used, compared to LV or Viso 020 those are as minimal as can be.

With M10, LV full informations very cluttered and that can not be turned off.

I hope that would be corrected in next firmware.

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[schllnbrgr]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Dr No:

Hallo first post here.

I agree with the OP and one thing that also really irks me is that in live view there is no option to silence the information on the screen.

Why is it not possible to have  the screen with the image, empty of all information?

On the 240 a bar blacks out a portion of the screen and there are numbers all over it. I have old cameras which you can turn the screen on and then press an info/display button to cycle through different modes and almost always allowing an uncluttered view.

I can't imagine any photographer who wants portions of the screen blacked out to display numbers. This is a real problem for me.

is this still the same way for the M10?

In Live View you can just press the circular button between the arrow keys and all information is gone.
or did I misunderstood you?

[a.noctilux]

Good thing with M10 is when framing with LV no information display, only spot when spot metering which can be moved around.

When half press the shutter button, some informations appear and at bottom only (one line), these can not be cancelled.

If the center button pressed, much more informations clutter the framing.

[sebben]

I found the EV value flashing in the viewfinder highly irritating as the extra visual noise would knock me out of the moment. Red digits that flash at you are generally warning signs after all. I stopped using EV compensation early on. Which actually is a pain because the M10 clips the highlights so quickly. What works for me is to underexpose most shots by -1EV to preserve specular highlights. In the end, I was chimping a lot to check the highlight exposure, which in turn ruined the shooting experience of the camera. I was also baffled that the EV comp is displayed in manual mode.

I do not understand why there is an option in the menu to turn it off.

The way the metering worked in the M8/M9 was perfect.

 

[menos I M6]

So I got the M10-P and it still does the exact same stupid EV viewfinder highjacking the M240 generation of digitals do.

 

I tried to convince myself that I will be able to change my way of exposing - if worst comes to worst simply ignoring the meter in the camera and using my handheld meter instead as I do with film cameras.

 

As Sebben above has noted with digital cameras it is simply absolutley mandatory to have a way of adjusting the meter to preserve highlights ( I usually dialed in -0.7 or -1 EV with my M8.2, M9 and MM and this worked beautifully without nagging every single shot in the viewfinder).

 

The way it works now just breaks photography. You KNOW what EV you have dialed in. When you raise the camera to your eye the only thing you want the viewfinder display to show you is the metered and locked shutter speed - THAT is important information.

 

Yes when i use AE mode I exclusively use it by locking and recomposing.

The M10-P now needs me to relearn how to meter and expose having to take a deliberate underexposure into account whereas any other camera I use just lets me dial this “silently” in with an EV correction - Nikon Pro DSLRs even let the user CALIBRATE the METER in a separate menu to the meter correction they need for a certain workflow. Such an option would perfectly solve this conundrum on a M10.

 

I understand for people who use the M10 to photograph cats and ice cream trucks this poses absolutely no problem at all - that extra moment of waiting until the EV value finally vanishes is no big deal for them after all - it may very well be a welcome feature. For people who lock and recompose in difficult light and want to shoot FAST this is a real showstopper.

 

The M10-P makes up in so many ways with being a much better camera than the horrible M240 generation before it that I am hoping to try to work around this issue. I hope it doesn’t end up the same as that M246 experiment.

 

Btw @adan the EV value unfortunately does NOT vanish on user input (pressing half way or lifting finger off etc.) it does stupidly STAY lit for a predetermined fixed amount of time with no way of interference from the user.

The only way I can think of to work around this issue for lock and recompose users is to NOT USE EV correction at all 😞

 

I am trying currently to try to meter and lock exposure in slightly brighter zones than I am used to but I am afraid this will ultimately wreck complete havoc with the way I am exposing with other cameras as well (Even with my Nikon DSLRs I am a lock and recompose shooter, having set them up for using the AF-on thumb button to focus and the half shutter press to meter and lock, using a center weighted meter pattern I have set up to “replicate” what I am used to from the Leica M7,8,9,MM camera I was using.

 

I just hate to loose the control of determining myself where to meter and leave that control to the autoexposure program while using the awkward and. umbersome way of “making the image brighter and darker” by dialing in an EV correction. This felt never natural to me.

[Guest Nowhereman]

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The EVF display issue on the M10 discussed here has never bothered me because I always use manual exposure, and don't set any exposure compensation. Essentially, I expose for the highlights the way I would with transparency film. The trouble I have with the M10 is the ease with which it blows highlights whenever there is any bright light in the frame (I don't mean specular highlights), particularly when shooting into the light — but also the way it exaggerates the highlights from bright sidelight, much more so than the M9 or MM.

That means that often I have to underexpose by 1-2+ stops and lift the shadows in post-processing: this, in itself, is not a problem because it's easy to lift the shadows in post-processing. The real problem I find with the M10 is the unpredictability of the degree to which you have to underexpose depending on various factors, which are difficult to perceive or predict, including how bright the highlights are, the direction they come from (perhaps), and the ISO used.

In another thread, @adan has called this issue the weird sensitometry of the M10. For example, because the M10 overstates higher ISOs, sometimes you have to use a higher ISO than you would with the M9 or MM but, then, have to underexpose "excessively" for the highlights — the weirdness includes how these factors work against each other: it's difficult to judge the degree to which you need to underexpose. Of course, when shooting still life or landscape you can take test shots; but in the dynamic situations of street photography, when you're changing rapidly between light coming from all directions as you turn around, you end up underexposing by so much that you end up having to do more selecting burning and dodging than is "reasonable" (compared to the M9 or MM). 

Generally, I like shooting into the light and the weird sensitometry has begun to annoy me enough to start considering selling this camera.
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Edited October 14, 2018 by Nowhereman

[menos I M6]

4 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

The EVF display issue on the M10 discussed here has never bothered me because I always use manual exposure, and don't set any exposure compensation. Essentially, I expose for the highlights the way I would with transparency film. The trouble I have with the M10 is the ease with which it blows highlights whenever there is any bright light in the frame (I don't mean specular highlights), particularly when shooting into the light — but also the way it exaggerates the highlights from bright sidelight, much more so than the M9 or MM.

That means that often I have to underexpose by 1-2+ stops and lift the shadows in post-processing: this, in itself, is not a problem because it's easy to lift the shadows in post-processing. The real problem I find with the M10 is the unpredictability of the degree to which you have to underexpose depending on various factors, which are difficult to perceive or predict, including how bright the highlights are, the direction they come from (perhaps), and the ISO used.

In another thread, @adan has called this issue the weird sensitometry of the M10. For example, because the M10 overstates higher ISOs, sometimes you have to use a higher ISO than you would with the M9 or MM but, then, have to underexpose "excessively" for the highlights — the weirdness includes how these factors work against each other: it's difficult to judge the degree to which you need to underexpose. Of course, when shooting still life or landscape you can take test shots; but in the dynamic situations of street photography, when you're changing rapidly between light coming from all directions as you turn around, you end up underexposing by so much that you end up having to do more selecting burning and dodging than is "reasonable" (compared to the M9 or MM). 

Generally, I like shooting into the light and the weird sensitometry has begun to annoy me enough to start considering selling this camera.
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I am cometely new to the M10 sensor so I am just starting to take first shots and try to understand the camera.

I guess this info is known to you?

It should be a big, fat, obvious sticker on the M10 box to remind photogrphers not just generally use ISO 100, assuming it to be base ISO of e sensor. Apparently it isn’t.

http://www.slack.co.uk/m10-and-blown-highlights.html

[Guest Nowhereman]

I've never shot the M10 at ISO 100, so my issues don't relate to that. The problematic way it deals with highlights — and its weird sensitometry — were evident in the first few shots I took with it — into the light, on a sunny day in Paris, not even in the bright and harsh tropical light that I mostly shoot in.
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[sebben]

9 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

 

Generally, I like shooting into the light and the weird sensitometry has begun to annoy me enough to start considering selling this camera.
 

I went through this as well. And in the end I sold the camera. 😕

 

Is ISO100 actually a pull iso? I always shot at base...

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Edited October 14, 2018 by sebben

[adan]

Ummm - folks. There are already many threads in existence about the M10 imaging/ISO/metering etc.

Let's stick to menos | M6's viewfinder question here - or we risk getting a "data dump" of hundreds of pictures from a certain forum member who wants to prove the quality of the M10 imaging/ISO/metering, and will do so on any thread he perceives as an "attack" on those.

A word to the wise.

@menos|M6: Is your M10-P actually behaving differently that my description previously? Because I have checked and rechecked, and it is accurate for my M10 (no "P"). The EC display only shows for a literal second - and only after one already knows the captured/locked shutter speed.

I guess, since I just don't even notice the EC display flash past, that I would make a very poor princess (see: "The Princess and the Pea," by Hans Christian Andersen).

And frankly, this is just a bit sneering and rude:

14 hours ago, menos I M6 said:

I understand for people who use the M10 to photograph cats and ice cream trucks this poses absolutely no problem at all

A hobbyist is a hobbyist, regardless of subject matter.

However, as I said before, if Leica revises the firmware to make the finder EC display optional (turn it off), that is, of course, fine with me. It can always be set/modified in the "info screen" on the back.

Edited October 14, 2018 by adan

[mdemeyer]

Everyone is entitled to their views, but I have no problem “seeing through” the LED display in the OVF when it doesn’t matter to me. Frankly, I was very surprised to see such strong negative reactions to it.

If that was enough to destroy my photography, I can’t imagine how I could survive the barrage of information - visual and audible - that assaults the senses constantly in our world...

Edited October 15, 2018 by mdemeyer

[erl]

I have been surprised by the stated problems with the OVF. I have been using mine oblivious to any distraction. Significantly, I have been reading the display sub-consciously and using it as intended, but never 'noticed' it as a distraction. I just see my target image, rather like shooting with a Noctilux, which apparently blocks part of of the VF! I just 'see' through it. No real issue unless you obsess over it.

[a.noctilux]

9 minutes ago, erl said:

I have been surprised by the stated problems with the OVF. I have been using mine oblivious to any distraction. Significantly, I have been reading the display sub-consciously and using it as intended, but never 'noticed' it as a distraction. I just see my target image, rather like shooting with a Noctilux, which apparently blocks part of of the VF! I just 'see' through it. No real issue unless you obsess over it.

Viewfinder blockage or too many informations in vf can be ignored by some people and not by other, that is life.

Zen attitude or critique attitude can't be "false or right" if positive thinking is the base 🙂.

Like the double frame lines in M vf, ennoying or not depend on people.

[Guest Nowhereman]

17 hours ago, adan said:

Ummm - folks. There are already many threads in existence about the M10 imaging/ISO/metering etc.

Let's stick to menos | M6's viewfinder question here - or we risk getting a "data dump" of hundreds of pictures from a certain forum member who wants to prove the quality of the M10 imaging/ISO/metering, and will do so on any thread he perceives as an "attack" on those.

A word to the wise...

It's unfortunate that it's so difficult to discuss a serious issue about the M10 on LUF — as affirmed by post #30 above. While there may be many threads where people have attempted to raise these issues, the protective posture towards Leica is so overwhelming that I haven't seen any threads that ended up anywhere useful...
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[adan]

4 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

It's unfortunate that it's so difficult to discuss a serious issue about the M10 on LUF...

I tend to agree about the occasional "defensiveness" and protective posture, when taken to extremes.

I do think it is fair to ask what constitutes "an issue" and what constitutes "a serious issue."

The M8 had serious issues - purple blacks, green bands, green blobs, "reflected" bright spots, "waterfall" vertical streaks if shot too soon after startup/wake-up. To the extent that Leica had to recall the first batch completely, and offer free 6-bit coding and UV/IR filters as compensation for the "purple" IR thing. As a side note - none of those issues were apparently noticed by beta-testers and early reviewers. It was the users on this forum who began pointing them out, once we got production M8s, and they became a serious issue because virtually no one here came to Leica's defense. They were too obvious, and universally troubling to a vast majority of users.

It is in the nature of the "democracy of the internet" that individuals complain about issues from within the bubble of how they personally want to work, and their personal photographic needs and expectations. And others may agree, in whole or in part. And yet others may neither notice nor care, and say so - and that is not "protecting Leica," it is simply expressing a different opinion of equal weight. (And a fair proportion of users may never express any opinion at all - they are spending their time out in the world taking pictures, not on internet forums.)

Objectively, a serious issue is one that affects a significant proportion of users.

That, of course, does not mean that lesser issues shouldn't be pointed out and discussed, and brought to Leica's attention.

[sebben]

On 10/15/2018 at 7:03 AM, mdemeyer said:

Everyone is entitled to their views, but I have no problem “seeing through” the LED display in the OVF when it doesn’t matter to me. Frankly, I was very surprised to see such strong negative reactions to it.

If that was enough to destroy my photography, I can’t imagine how I could survive the barrage of information - visual and audible - that assaults the senses constantly in our world...

The main issue is that it flashes up the EV compensation value whilst you are trying to meter. This results in lost shots because you have to wait for the EV value to disappear before you can see the meter value. 

[lucerne]

Sebben.

I understand your point.  However, if exposure compensation isn’t part of your exposure planning, dial it out to zero, and you will not see the value pop up in the viewfinder prior to your metering .   Try it.

Generally, I don’t find it inconvenient, and would want to be informed of any residual setting. 

I wonder what jet pilots would do if the “heads up information” was switched off because some pilots felt it interfered with their flying. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by lucerne

[sebben]

Did you read the thread? The issue is because the M10 clips highlights so easily i find I need  to use EV comp to help prevent this from happening. This is also related to the fact the meter is easily fooled. 

Using EV comp breaks the responsiveness of the meter as it flashes the EV value every time before the meter value when you press the shutter. This needs to be a firmware option that can be turned off to bring the meter back to the same functionally of the M8/M9. Aka. The workflow I have been using for 10 years. 

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[lucerne]

I know that many use EV comp to overcome the clipping  problem.  I’ve built a setting into a preset.  I don’t find the problem excessive.  I can’t remember what my workflow was 10 years ago.  Does it matter that we have to modify our procedures.  I get greater satisfaction from manually controlling exposure. I’ve just sold my Leica Q.  I found it boring. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by lucerne