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The SL Within A Robust Competitive Landscape


johnbuckley

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The announcement of new cameras and camera systems has gotten me thinking about the SL as a system/ecosystem.  

 

Like some sizable subset of forum members, I came to the SL from having used Ms for a long time (15 years), and having skipped the development of DSLRs.  The added flexibility the SL affords, the incredible native zoom lenses and the ability to use M lenses all made the addition of the SL system to the M system a pairing that had -- and has -- me quite content.  To oversimplify, I use the SL for landscape photography and the M for street photography.  I would take along the SL system to go the mountains and desert, the M to go to Paris, or out and about the city I live in.  I'm grateful to be able to work within both systems.

 

But we are all blessed, and also cursed, to be living at a time when there is an incredible proliferation of good cameras and systems, and just as one tries to think through the exposure variables before planning a shot, my mind -- not immune from GAS, but still fairly commonsensical -- calculates constantly whether the SL is the correct permanent second system to my M (which they will have to pry out of my hands), and my thinking goes... well, let's do this in stream-of-conscious... 

 

Good Lord, that Leica S3 at 64 megapixels looks incredible... but super expensive... and limited at the long end (not enough native telephotos that can compete with the SL's 90-280...), but God, it would be nice to have that larger sensor and more megapixels, and hey, the Fuji GFX 50r sure is the right idea... though would I really want to switch away from Leica glass... and I have this investment in M and now SL lenses... which could be used, via the L Mount, in that new 47mp Panasonic... but why would I give up the SL for a Panasonic, no offense, just to get extra MPs... but I really need those extra megapixels given how a client recently asked me to blow up an image taken with a 24mp M and the printer said he just couldn't go that big, and hey, what about the Hasselblad? And...

 

The bottom line, when I come back to my sense is a) I am smitten with the SL system and wouldn't want to leave it; with one exception (see the above reference to needing something bigger than 24mps) it truly suits my needs, b ) the S is too expensive for me, and also too big (I can't imagine hiking at 11,000 feet lugging an S), c) the Fuji seems like a great idea, but I don't really want to trade out of the Leica system(s).  All roads lead back to the SL, in tandem with the M.  

 

But there is this: the SL is now sitting out there as a three-year old camera with a circa 2015 24mp sensor, and there's some very compelling competition, announced if not delivered.  I know few on the forum expected an upgrade of the SL at photokina.  With all this competition, it would be good, though, if Leica were to announce, sooner rather than later, the SL2 with a more robust sensor (in megapixels, obviously not size) so as to silence that voice in my head...

Edited by johnbuckley
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What size was the print you were looking for? 47 MP gets you 28x19 inches at 300ppi. 24 MP gets you 20x13 inches at the same print resolution. The 47 MP image is definitely larger but you can get around 215 ppi at the same print size with the 24 MP file. The difference may not be that large for many viewers.

 

I’m asking because I have not encountered a situation where I didn’t have some idea of print size in mind before a shoot for a paying client. It seems that if they have a certain print resolution and viewing distance in mind it would be specified in advance, well before the print stage. Less demanding clients probably have less demanding expectations for print resolution.

 

If something unexpected comes up, upres software may be enough to get you by.

 

I do want a higher resolution SL camera and I would prefer over the Panasonic interface but I can’t see comparing to the S system (not mirrorless, no M compatibility, larger lenses with more limited range) or the Fuji (slower operation, worse EVF, more limited lens ecosystem when compared to L, R, and M with the SL, larger size for slower lenses, and a poor UI when compared to the SL).

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The client chose an image off my website that was definitely not one I would ever have expected someone would want to go large.  She wanted the image to be 72 X 48, which admittedly is not typical.  The file produced by the M-240 and its 24mp sensor just couldn't get there even at 150ppi, according to the printer I work with. Yes, we might have gotten something adequate, but she was going to put it on the prominent wall in her living room.  It made me think then, as now, it would be good to be working with a larger sensor and, in 2018, the SL probably should try keeping up.

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The client chose an image off my website that was definitely not one I would ever have expected someone would want to go large. She wanted the image to be 72 X 48, which admittedly is not typical. The file produced by the M-240 and its 24mp sensor just couldn't get there even at 150ppi, according to the printer I work with. Yes, we might have gotten something adequate, but she was going to put it on the prominent wall in her living room. It made me think then, as now, it would be good to be working with a larger sensor and, in 2018, the SL probably should try keeping up.

That’s large but the viewing distance could allow for lower resolution or a try with upres software.

 

The 47 MP image wouldn’t be 150 ppi at that size either. You’d need 78 MP at that size and resolution.

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The S3 won’t be here before Spring, so might as well sit back and wait to see if the SL2 is on the horizon by then, while the other systems (and corresponding reviews) trickle in. In the meantime, nothing to stop you from a demo of Fuji, Hassy, etc to determine if that evokes, or extinguishes, any enthusiasm. Your SL will still take pics.

 

Jeff

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Despite a very large number of comments on this forum that 24mp is some “sweet spot”, I always strongly disagreed with that view ..... and it seems from the launch of the S3 (and CL) ....and hopefully with a further push from the Panasonic S1R ......that Leica is happy with technology now allowing much higher megapixel density AND maintaining at least as good dynamic range.

 

So I’d expect the next SL to have a large boost here. If it doesn’t get close to 50mp, I’m frankly done with Leica bodies.

 

I typically print very large - I like my M240 and 50 APO to around 40”. 60” is pushing it far too hard, in my view. 72” will just look like a plastic and fake mess at 300dpi. I’d rather take a drum scanned 35mm negative at that massive size ..... it would be very grainy, but at least it would maintain the integrity of looking like a true photo!

 

Getting towards 50 megapixels (Panasonic

S1R, maybe SL2?, maybe Sigma?) will equate what I like at 40” towards the equivalent of c 60”. I think the L Mount is a much, much better system for expanding megapixels compared to the M line ....the M is cute in terms of size / ergonomics, but I think the SL is superior in terms of image quality (larger glass seems to help here, especially the peerless SL Summicrons, with less probs with small M glass and things like microlenses, edge smearing etc ). Combine it with more accurate direct-sensor focus (rather than central point rangefinder), and i would guess that the SL is much better suited for a large megapixel boost rather than the street M range.

 

So I think 2019 is exciting for L Mount and higher megapixels. I will look at the SL2, of course, but the S1R already sounds promising for resolution. What I’m REALLY curious is just what the Sigma Foveon camera and SL Summicron primes might create .....Foveon sensors historically punch far above their megapixel weight, and provide colour tonality and depth — and especially “naturalness”

— that I don’t see with Bayer sensors. For example, I also really, really like the Sigma DP Merrills to c 45” prints, and their sensor size is small and not even full frame yet!!.....

Edited by Jon Warwick
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I don't think there is a problem here. If Leica decides that the large majority of its customers would not appreciate high pixel counts, they certainly would not object to you and the rest of the minority using their lenses on a high-MP Panasonic, maybe even with pixel shift to take you up into the 100 MP range. Their lenses are ready for it. That is the gain of the Alliance, both for customers and makers.

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It's going to be an exciting year or two for L system owners. Whether it be Panasonic or Leica or SIgma, solutions become available and the possibilities expand.

 

I will certainly add either an SL2 or S1R to my kit and maybe a Foveon, if it is a good camera. It'll replace the Sony system I have now. It's fine to say 24MP is enough, except sometimes it isn't. I wouldn't print at 150ppi either. I also have some demanding clients and having the Sony and Canon TS lenses has gotten me a lot of work. I'd much rather have those lenses attached to an SL2. Having an SL2 or S1R in the bag is going to simplify my shooting kit a LOT. Even if it's an SL2, the sheer amount of gear I'll be able to shed means I won't have to fork out any more cash.

 

I'll still have my medium format gear (Hasselblad/Leica/Pentax) because those files are wonderful. Unfortunately the S3 isn't mirrorless so I doubt I'll be going there. I don't know what I'll do with my S system. The glass is great on the SL and the body can backup my HC lenses. But I much prefer the X1D. It's a shame. The S glass is spectacular and I'd have loved to kept it all Leica. But for me, Leica missed the boat by not announcing a mirrorless S. Same body size to keep the lens mount. Just with an EVF. Oh well....

 

However, I'll continue to shoot the majority of my work on my antiquated SLs. 95% of the time the SLs, in their current form, are enough. In fact it's only the mandatory LENR that makes me use the Sony in half of those situations. It'll be nice to have the Panasonic/SL2 for when I need it but my current bodies will be fine for the indefinite future. I know people go on about the sensor but I just don't have that many situations where I need more, in a commercial environment. I tend to shoot to the cameras capabilities rather than worry "what if?". I'd think differently if I were a fine art landscape photographer, professionally. But even then it'd be 90% for the resolution bump and 95% of the time I can stitch, except for the LENR restrictions. Much of the time I still carry around a m43 kit. An SL2 with 24MP probably isn't going to temp me. I have the best 24MP sensors (A9, A73) and while there's a difference it isn't enough to make a real world difference, to me.

 

Why bother with a S1R when I have medium format? Simple. Zooms... The convenience and ease of use with a set of great zooms is the only reason I stick with 135 format at all. And while I'd still have preferred a 12-24 over the 16-35, The three zooms really do make a simple yet brilliant kit for nearly anything. I took a SOny kit on a recent trip because of the combination of file size, weight and convenience. Would have much preferred a set of Leica zooms. Next trip it will be. That makes me happy.

 

Gordon

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With all this competition, it would be good, though, if Leica were to announce, sooner rather than later, the SL2 with a more robust sensor (in megapixels, obviously not size) so as to silence that voice in my head...

It seems almost impossible to me that Leica wont introduce a new SL at around the same time the S1R shows up. Seems equally implausible that it would be introduced with significantly fewer pixel sites than the other partner offerings capable of mounting their glass.  If so, it's almost inevitable that it would house the same 47MP Panasonic sensor as the S1R.  If we want to fantasize about how delicious a prospect that might be, we can dream that it will be organic with 20 stops of range.

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Perhaps Panasonic would Plan for a new FF Mirrorless model every 2 years?

I would rather that Leica wait for the dust to settle on the S1R then launch a more robust SL2 than chase after the pack.

Besides the S3 was just launched, so the SL2 would follow later based on a 4 years product life cycle.

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One possible route for an SL2 may be 16 bit files and leaf shutter compatibility with the S lenses. I don't know if Leica will ever go that way but it's already in the S line DNA and definitely not likely on a Panasonic L mount camera.

 

It's a given that the Panasonics will price their cameras competitive with Canons, Sonys and Nikons, i.e. below theirs, so an SL2 is likely to come in at 50% to 80% above that. Leica will likely focus on non mass market components to differentiate, like that EVF of the SL. It's still the standard to look to. The SL lenses probably already have some pretty funky rare glasses to make them so exceptional.

 

There are of course other areas that Canon, Sony, Nikon and Panasonic will not touch that's deemed professional. Leica could easily monopolise the professional market for Alpa and Linhof technical cameras slowly eating up their share of the current market. Everything they can do, Sinar can do too already. Sinar could even come out with a 35mm SL version of the Linhof M679cs. Fully integrated and optimised for the future. 

 

Don't forget that there are even more specialised niches such as deep sea, high altitude, space cameras that are customised for those environments at great costs. Leica builds in small quantities and at profit but cheaper than their competitors. Imagine a stainless steel version of the SL  :D. Same set of instructions but built to stronger materials. The L mount integrated as part of the same block of metal.

 

What Leica hasn't really done is to show what level of professional local services they can offer that satisfies many professionals. However, what's attractive about the technical cameras and cine pro markets is the low level of support that's needed if the professional isn't busting his equipment on a regular basis. Personally, I've never sent in my Sinar for any repairs in 12 years but it's because my pace of work doesn't work the camera to death  :)

 

There's only so much resources Leica has. So the L platform is a very smart long term move for the current environment. Put it this way, Leica doesn't have to compete with Canons, Sonys and Nikons if they tackled the professional photography market as a single entity, servicing the whole market with a comprehensive united system. The mistake is to look at the market and say how is it possible for Leica to compete against the big boys with their resources. Much better is to look at it and ask where are the big boys in the niche markets? What's their competencies when competing against Leica in these markets?

Edited by lx1713
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I watched two of my shots printed on 2 by 3 meters. They looked spectacular and you could easily see the difference with the other prints (from many different cameras and lenses). There's not a real need for more pixels, unless you want to stare at 2x3 meter images up close. And even then...

http://joerivanderkloet.com/leica-sl-delivers-perfect-2-3-meter-prints/

Would the S3 have made a better shot? Maybe. I have the SL, make a living with it, it works, clients are happy, I'm happy. 

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The mistake is to look at the market and say how is it possible for Leica to compete against the big boys with their resources. Much better is to look at it and ask where are the big boys in the niche markets? What's their competencies when competing against Leica in these markets?

While I agree, the conundrum is that niche markets are typically up market which means that some aspects, pixel count, DR, etc, have to be inline or at least within spitting distance of the herd.  Despite the grousing about the internal specs in some quarters, the M sells at a premium (an ever increasing one up  over 10% since introduction) as it does offer something completely unique that simply can't be had anywhere else.  Pulling off that same trick in the MILC FF market will be challenging indeed. 

 

If the results from Leica glass are virtually indistinguishable between an SL2 and S1R, a 50-80% premium is going to be a tough sell regardless.  As I mentioned in another thread, perhaps their strategy is to pave the way for morphing from a system manufacturer into one concentrated more on lens production.  If SL2 sales do slide, the added breath of the L-Mount market can serve to pick up the slack. 

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...

 

If the results from Leica glass are virtually indistinguishable between an SL2 and S1R, a 50-80% premium is going to be a tough sell regardless.  As I mentioned in another thread, perhaps their strategy is to pave the way for morphing from a system manufacturer into one concentrated more on lens production.  If SL2 sales do slide, the added breath of the L-Mount market can serve to pick up the slack. 

 

 

:) I don't think Leica particularly minds if a Panasonic or a Sigma user prefers Leica lenses on their bodies. My feeling is that what other manufacturers cannot really risk is for an item that needs to sell in the millions to just sell in the hundreds. Thats what Leica can do comfortably. Whether its the SL or SL2 slides, it doesn't really matter, if research labs, government agencies pick it up or a variant of it as a viable tool.

 

I think what Leica probably  wants is for SL lenses to be 100% compatible with Panasonic and Sigma bodies just to sell more lenses.

 

I've a set of Foba combitubes, some 25 years old, aluminium tubes with steel cone connectors. They no longer sell actively to photographers but from their website, it seems they sell to research labs stainless steel versions. Although the alu versions are hellish expensive and tough, I can only imagine the cost of stainless steel ones. My feeling is that, if like foba, like Leica microscopes, certain markets just feel that there isn't really a viable alternative. That's where Leica should be.

 

 

I can imagine say a new Sinar body with a rear standard incorporating a Foveon sensor. With electronically controlled tilts, shifts probably computed and adjusted automatically for the optimum depth of field. That's an enormous productivity leap forward. All the limitations of a Foveon sensor is meaningless when the pace of a studio shoot is deliberate and usually at ISO 50 & 100. Pair a Foveon 35mm sensor with the S lenses at the front standard and you will have the whole S range of lenses. AF, automatic diaphragm control, larger image circle for tilts, shifts at the lens end. Every modern lens feature you need to feed the computer to calculate your tilt and shifts automatically. None of these is available in current tech cameras.

Edited by lx1713
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In the above post, I mentioned "With electronically controlled tilts, shifts probably computed and adjusted automatically for the optimum depth of field". When I decided to explore the use of view cameras again (in view of potential work because of how cheaply I could pick one up), I discovered that with MF digital backs I will need to upgrade the gears to allow smaller movements. With a 35mm sensor the precision will need to be even greater so my guess is that the normal view camera movements cannot be easily executed with mechanical gears. So that's an opportunity here to change things. 

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Well I can certainly say that, regardless of whatever body I get, it will be paired with SL Summicron lenses. The lenses are flawless, presumably the best of the best in the future, and an “investment” (whatever that means) compared to the camera bodies.

 

What’s great about the Alliance is the different looks that I expect from the sensor, especially Foveon vs CMOS.

 

In short, I’m pretty sure I can identify with 100% accuracy that an image is “digital” if it’s from a CMOS sensor.

 

But I can’t say the same about Foveon, where my gut reaction is that its “rendering” is much much closer to a natural and filmic look. I’m much more likely to be hard pressed on flicking through drum scans (of 120 or 5x4) + my Foveon images to decide which is which.

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Back on  the subject of whether the SL will be a competitive entity now that other major camera manufacturers are planning to offer L mount bodies and lenses I find myself watching all of this quite closely because I will no doubt be upgrading my current DSLR kit, ( Nikon 810 ), in the next year or so.....I think.

For me it will be a "no-brainer", it will be a Nikon mirror-less option if only because of all the Nikon glass I have going from current to several decades old and their recent Z6 and Z7 cameras do look interesting and have some appeal even with my still current preference for an OVF rather than any EVF that I've seen and tried so far, including the SL's.

I tried to "like" the SL but just couldn't get there with it. I really didn't find the camera's EVF to be that much better than others to any great degree or even at all as compared for instance with my GH4 and now GH5 cameras and of course the handling, the limited range, the size and pricing of the lens systems for the SL did more than just make me pause in considering going into that system and now that there's going to be a greater degree of choice in that L lens mount I do wonder how Leica will fare with the SL or any coming SL2.

If I wanted to remain in the Leica world and could rationally afford to do so I'd skip the SL completely and go for the S.......But that's more of a lustful dream and unlikely to become a reality.

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The Fuji GFX system seems to be the best option for landscapes moving forward. Their bodies and lenses are priced/sized similarly to FF mirrorless systems. 50MP and 100MP offerings in different body styles. And they're coming out with more zooms, presumably with near flawless optics. Ergo's are subjective, and the lenses may be slow(er), but neither really matters much when the camera is bolted to a tripod.

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The Fuji GFX system seems to be the best option for landscapes moving forward. Their bodies and lenses are priced/sized similarly to FF mirrorless systems. 50MP and 100MP offerings in different body styles. And they're coming out with more zooms, presumably with near flawless optics. Ergo's are subjective, and the lenses may be slow(er), but neither really matters much when the camera is bolted to a tripod.

The definition of “best” is important here. If you discount ergonomics and lens speed, I may be more willing to discount price. Maybe Phase One is the best. Or Canon FF with the available tilt shift lenses or M43 with the small high quality telephotos, etc.

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In one particular niche Leica is peerless - M cameras and lenses, intimate settings, discreet and quiet.

 

Sports and events, traditionally DSLR and now Sony A9 but only once they build competitive lens line up. L line still barley affordable for majority user.

 

It leaves L for more leisurely work like landscape and yes slow lens and tripod are perfect companions.

 

No doubt Panasonic will go after video users and Sigma-Foveon after landscape users, I guess SL2 will be of some interest to those who missed the news about evolution in medium format or L alliance or must have red dotted camera.

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