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I made this som time ago:

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The X1D is thinner than the SL. It uses a larger sensor than the SL. It uses and older sensor than the SL. The SL is quite happy making long 4k video clips or UHD at 60FPS. That puts a lot more stress on a sensor than a longer still exposure. Sorry, but the airflow thing just doesn't stack up. And I mention again, a dark frame makes more heat, not less because the sensor makes a second exposure, every time.

 

Leica have LENR as mandatory on EVERY non-rebadged camera they make. It's a corporate decision and not a technical one. It might well be, that some Leica cameras have heat issues. But the SL doesn't (by nature of it's video capabilities). I think we'd be OK if it were explained and implemented on a camera by camera basis rather than an across the board swipe of the corporate pen.

 

I am not disputing that LENR is a good idea. It is. Just that mandatory LENR is a bad one because sometimes you might need to compromise a bit of IQ to get the shot (which is exactly the same principle as raising the ISO). It also ignores environmental conditions where it's cold enough to assist keeping the sensor cooler.

 

Gordon

I have no quarrel with making LENR optional. The difference between us is the reasons we suspect. I think it may be technical, you think Leica's top management is obstinate. The latter appears quite unlikely to me.

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:rolleyes:

Why do you go on and on with this M240 argument? It is getting very boring. You like video, many of us do not.
If you look at the sensor-plane for the M10 and the SL there is a lot of room behind the SL. And no room behind the M10. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

What M240 argument? I didn't mention Video... :rolleyes: Why are you dragging it into here?

Put on your reading glasses: this was about size and cooling capacity and the strange effect on customers of the 0.5 mm on the M240.

 

Nice comparison. It proves my point. Have a look at the sensor plane mark on that Nikon. It must have 20 mm of air behind its sensor. That M10 has rather nothing. But you mentioned the sparce in the SL. How much is that precisely? I have no idea.

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50mm comparison:

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50mm comparison:

That is clear :). Even then, the sensor plane is not marked on the SL.  We would need to see the interior to know how much cooling and air space the sensor has. And being crammed up against the LCD cannot help either.

I still repeat: I cannot imagine that Leica implements LENR to just to annoy their customers. There must be a solid reason. It would help if Leica would give us some insight. Interviewers: are you listening?

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Can anybody please enlighten us what this “air space” argument is all about? All of the electronics are in an environmentally sealed body with no air movement. Thermal conductivity of dry air is around 0.025 W/m K, aluminum is in the 200’s W/m K (apologies to my American compatriots, I have no clue what that would be in Btu/h F ft)

 

 

 

That is clear :). Even then, the sensor plane is not marked on the SL. We would need to see the interior to know how much cooling and air space the sensor has.

I still repeat: I cannot imagine that Leica implements LENR to just to annoy their customers. There must be a solid reason. It would help if Leica would give us some insight. Interviewers: are you listening?

Edited by laowai_
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I never said it was uncontrollable. The point, however, is that heat build-up will generate pixel noise that is best eliminated by LENR. Cooling is essential for long exposures and I suspect Leica bodies are not the best on the market in that respect.

 

In astrophotography LENR and cooling are hot topics (excuse the pun ;) )

See this post in an astronomer's LENR discussion.:

 

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/563601-dslr-in-camera-noise-reduction/?p=7659374

 

 

In general, I do wish that Leica would provide some background for their design decision, if only to provide some understanding.

That poster on Cloudy Nights missed something incredibly important with regard to LENR... Yes, in situations where the temperature is varyiable across exposures and the thermal noise is heavily dependent on delta T , LENR can be as effective or even more effective than a master dark at a very different temperature. However, that completely ignores the fact that using LENR cuts your integration time in half, reducing SNR by a factor of 1.4x.

 

It’s not even close. LENR is less effective than a dark library, and for many CMOS based cameras that have low thermal noise (especially during he winter months), the combination of bias frames and dithering can be even better than either.

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Can anybody please enlighten us what this “air space” argument is all about? All of the electronics are in an environmentally sealed body with no air movement. Thermal conductivity of dry air is around 0.025 W/m K, aluminum is in the 200’s W/m K (apologies to my American compatriots, I have no clue what that would be in Btu/h F ft)

Space to put cooling fins and heat sinks etc. on sensors and processors.

 

However, we are all speculating:

In general, I do wish that Leica would provide some background for their design decision, if only to provide some understanding.

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50mm comparison:

 

Well just this snap of the SL and the Z6/7 with their 50mm's up confirms for me the decision that when the time comes to move on from my present Nikon DSLR, ( 810 ), it will most likely be another Nikon and not a move into Leica SL land. That's one hell of a lump of a 50mm lens on the SL to port around, despite protestations that the handling is good.

Sure I have no doubt that the SL lenses are very good indeed, but you know so are many of Nikon's offerings, old and new, and the ability to be able to use 90% of the Nikon glass I still own from the '70's to the present day, and to be able to use IBIS if I would wish to with even the legacy lenses is a valuable plus.

But then, I'm getting ahead of myself as I've yet to handle one of the new Nikon Z's, I may well change my mind then but I doubt it. I've had a long pro' history with Nikon cameras and they've rarely disappointed or let me down.

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Can anybody please enlighten us what this “air space” argument is all about? All of the electronics are in an environmentally sealed body with no air movement. Thermal conductivity of dry air is around 0.025 W/m K, aluminum is in the 200’s W/m K (apologies to my American compatriots, I have no clue what that would be in Btu/h F ft)

 

 

 

 

Personally I think this is all a diversion from the central issue ....... some sensors are just very much better than others at keeping long exposure noise to a level where simple methods/algorithms/look up tables are adequate at keeping it below noticeable levels in the final RAW file. 

 

I don't know ..... but suspect .... that Leica are sourcing sensors for their main premium cameras from one manufacturer where other factors are more important than  heat dissipation and long exposure capabilities. 

 

The X1D shares a sensor with several other cameras and none require LNER using dark frames..... it just happens to be a good sensor design. 

 

However I certainly agree that Leica is skating on thin ice if they persist in low maximum exposure times and mandatory LNER in future cameras ......  :angry:

Edited by thighslapper
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Well just this snap of the SL and the Z6/7 with their 50mm's up confirms for me the decision that when the time comes to move on from my present Nikon DSLR, ( 810 ), it will most likely be another Nikon and not a move into Leica SL land. That's one hell of a lump of a 50mm lens on the SL to port around, despite protestations that the handling is good.

Sure I have no doubt that the SL lenses are very good indeed, but you know so are many of Nikon's offerings, old and new, and the ability to be able to use 90% of the Nikon glass I still own from the '70's to the present day, and to be able to use IBIS if I would wish to with even the legacy lenses is a valuable plus.

But then, I'm getting ahead of myself as I've yet to handle one of the new Nikon Z's, I may well change my mind then but I doubt it. I've had a long pro' history with Nikon cameras and they've rarely disappointed or let me down.

Why not show the SL with the 50 Summicron? Or the Nikon with the Noct?

 

Maybe show both with legacy glass?

 

The comparison is worthless because the lenses are not designed to be compared. Leica makes smaller 50s and Nikon makes larger ones.

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Well just this snap of the SL and the Z6/7 with their 50mm's up confirms for me the decision that when the time comes to move on from my present Nikon DSLR, ( 810 ), it will most likely be another Nikon and not a move into Leica SL land. That's one hell of a lump of a 50mm lens on the SL to port around, despite protestations that the handling is good.

Sure I have no doubt that the SL lenses are very good indeed, but you know so are many of Nikon's offerings, old and new, and the ability to be able to use 90% of the Nikon glass I still own from the '70's to the present day, and to be able to use IBIS if I would wish to with even the legacy lenses is a valuable plus.

But then, I'm getting ahead of myself as I've yet to handle one of the new Nikon Z's, I may well change my mind then but I doubt it. I've had a long pro' history with Nikon cameras and they've rarely disappointed or let me down.

The better size comparison would probably be with the upcoming Summicron.

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The better size comparison would probably be with the upcoming Summicron.

Size comparison websites usually have databases populated with products one can buy in a shop not on the drawing board. As Summicron L line share same barrel therfore 75/90mm L could represent either forthcoming 35 or 50mm.

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